Unmasking Workplace Hazards with David Ayers: From Lead Exposure to Technological Advances

[00:00:00] You might not realize it, but we are exposed to dozens of hazards every day. Can any of these hazards negatively impact your health?

[00:00:09] Definitely this is the Exposure Scientist podcast. My name is Alex LeBeau and here. We answer your questions and concerns on what you may be exposed to every day. Welcome to the Exposure Scientist podcast.

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[00:00:41] Hello everyone, and welcome to today's episode of the Exposure Scientist podcast. Today we are speaking with Dr. David Ayers and we are going to be talking today about ensuring workplace safety

[00:00:53] and the role of the occupational employee monitoring in the workplace to ensure safe conditions for not only your employees, but potentially your visitors or guests or billing occupants as well. Dr. Ayers, welcome to the program. Thank you, Alex. Thank you for having me appreciated.

[00:01:09] Of course, could you tell the listeners a little bit about yourself please? Just in a very brief sense, I had been doing safety for about 30 years. I think it is probably the best job I could have ever had because I really want to help people.

[00:01:24] And I think over the years, I think I've switched from the hard skills to the soft skills.

[00:01:30] At first, I was very focused on, we always have to be educational based and now as I get older, I realize if you really build those relationships, the things that you have in things that you're having common, you can really get past anything.

[00:01:45] That's probably bad. I don't want to just keep talking, of course. That's what we're here to do. No, that's great here. Actually one of the things I love about this is sharing your individual experiences so people can learn from it.

[00:01:57] They learn that there are paths that you take during your career and some things you learn more from others. That's what I definitely want to let the listeners know and talk about today. Thank you.

[00:02:08] So again, since today's topic is the discussion of workplace safety and occupational employee monitoring. From your perspective in your experience, I'd like to hear, I'll say even good or bad, what you kind of see the importance of occupational employee monitoring from other industry perspective or consulting experience,

[00:02:31] the different kind of scenarios that you've been exposed to as far as the application of that monitoring.

[00:02:38] Okay, well let's just dive right in. One of the things that I really like to focus on and this is something that some people kind of go back and shy away from is what chemicals are actually in the workplace.

[00:02:56] What could be the worst case scenario? Let's look at the engineering controls out there and I don't know if I've just been really lucky or just blessed, but I've always had fantastic bosses and fantastic workplaces that we could go back in and say, well how do we make things better.

[00:03:12] Let's not torture people with respirators. Let's not do festivals. Let's not do these things because I've always, I've always ethically had a hard time with I can't expose you up to a certain point and then I can't expose you after that and then I have to do physicals and all that it just seems that I shouldn't have to expose you to anything out there.

[00:03:36] So, and I know I was on my soapboxum for that one there but we want to look around at just a few brand brand new to the workplace. You know you're going to have to just literally walk through.

[00:03:48] You're going to have to look for the different hazards out there trying to identify things. The human nose is not very good picking up sense.

[00:03:57] So I have right in there with a bunch of people who say, wow, so many things that has to be good. Well, it doesn't mean it's good but it also doesn't mean it's bad. So you have to have that good data out there to really go forward.

[00:04:10] No, I think that's valuable advice and especially to the young career safety and hygienic individuals that are out there that may be listening because you may get you.

[00:04:23] It says like you've had a good experience as but you may get pushbacks from some places like, oh, why do we need this? So I can't we just like you say, can we just make them wear a respirator.

[00:04:31] You know, having to are having demonstrable data that shows why you need to control the hazards at the workplace is definitely something valuable.

[00:04:41] Yes, yes, yes. And I have worked out a couple places that also that also had wanted to have that negative data to is to say we've done everything we possibly can. So let's go back and really confirm the engineering controls not a oh yeah, you know, we put in an exhaust and in the hood.

[00:05:00] Everything has got to be cool now, you know, how do you really go back and have that data and you can really prove people have not been exposed not to deviate off topic too much but they did work at a plant and we did a bunch of semi semi semiconductor stuff.

[00:05:16] And I think we have like 256 different monitoring points and of course it continuously ran and we were looking for anything we could at the arsenic phosphorus, HCL ammonia, gosh there's like a whole the whole gamut of that stuff.

[00:05:31] And the company really wanted to have that negative data to really make sure of course that nothing and and they were really after zero not just a oh, you know, we're under the under the panel everything's awesome and all that but they really wanted zero at all times.

[00:05:48] And it was really good to go back and confirm and say yes, all of the engineering controls are working exactly the way they're supposed to work.

[00:05:55] I mean that's amazing. I love hearing stories like that because I'll be honest, I've heard I've heard the other end of the distribution where they don't want to know the information.

[00:06:06] They have installed engineering controls and no one has verified that their local's office ventilation has worked in years and when they do their monitoring or or test the airflow.

[00:06:17] It's not working at all. They had us and then said, there's the people that now they know they have to do something about it kind of scenario where it's before they didn't know everything was fine.

[00:06:28] Yes, yes, I did have a friend and across I'm not going to say you know the friends name the company name and everything but he called me and he had a lot of ethical concerns out there and one of the ethical concerns is that you know he could he could literally smell this chemical.

[00:06:44] Of course, you know, really know how strong it is. The human nose is not that good but when he brought up the whole we really need to do sampling and figure out is this good is this bad like where do we where do we go?

[00:06:56] He looked at over at the FESH eat it didn't have a pal didn't have a rail didn't have any of that stuff.

[00:07:02] And the legal folks were asking them well if there's no tell or rail I don't know what we're going to measure against how do you how do you prove harm if nothing it's nothing's been proven harmful.

[00:07:14] And I think all of us that have been in safety for a while understand that there's thousands of chemicals out there but the pills are.

[00:07:23] Most most most pills are from what ocean first started back about 1970 some have been updated and some have not been updated and many times they didn't have a scientific measure that they just just kind of said we're not with a short platform what's not for the human body, but one and we start with five ppm until we gather more data and understand.

[00:07:43] things more so it takes them a really long time to update these pills out there.

[00:07:48] No I have seen it where additionally you know if there's a TLD established and there may be lower than the pal and you say well I want to you know that I think this is more protective and they say well that's not the.

[00:08:01] We're sensible level let's go for it. It is very frustrating. Yes and it is hard to deal with from a science standpoint because you know what needs to be done and should we done how do you balance that that's that's a discussion probably all another day.

[00:08:21] Yes yes yes yes yes another another kind of kind of boring story but maybe not boring story we're working with a bunch of led type that type.

[00:08:31] We're not kind of a type shadow and not kind of stuff that so it's in a it's in a past form and we're doing all kinds of sampling for a year we can't find anything in on an airborne but when you do a wipe sample you can find the places.

[00:08:43] So, but people will come back and say, but there's no standard on a wipesamble. There's no standard. Well, you know that it's getting out. You know that right from the get go, your housekeeping is spotty if best people are not following hygiene, they're not changing gloves,

[00:08:58] they're not doing these kinds of things. And then it just kind of ends up being almost like rabbits. You get to, you get four, you get eight, you can then find it on the phone, you can find it on a mouse pad,

[00:09:09] you can then start to find it in places that you should not be finding it out there. And I think that we've all seen somebody who has spotty hygiene in the workplace and they will scratch their eyes, their nose,

[00:09:22] put their finger in their mouth to get food out. You're hope that their father win real good hygiene inside these labs. But it's definitely hard to, you can give all the people all the training, but they have to take some responsibility

[00:09:37] and convey the importance of what we're doing to them is not always easy. Yes, yes. Yes. If I could go back to the respirator question for a second. So be sure it's our super, super common these days. It's the cool in thing, you know?

[00:09:55] So it's really hard to talk to somebody and say, well, you know, part of the job is to have clean shave every day. And there's been a lot of pushback when somebody says, but I typically only wear it about once every two weeks

[00:10:10] for half an hour or hour, I don't see where I have to have to clean shave every day. So those types of bottles are really hard to do. And I have found that those bottles are not for me to fight.

[00:10:23] You know, if it really has to be for the folks in HR and who write the job description to interview the folks to really understand and set that tone up front, it can't be, we bring them in, we give them the physical,

[00:10:36] they already have a beard and then say, well, guess what? You know, we really didn't mention this in the interview, but you need to shave every day. And so, really has to be said upfront to help them out as much because some people

[00:10:50] that really is going to be a show stopper for them because a beard is just a way that they express themselves and the way they want to look and all that stuff. Sure, so, it's just, did you know, holding that into what I want to talk about

[00:11:03] as far as exposure, monitoring, you know, as far as what people are doing in the workplace and what they are willing to do, have you? What have your experience been with and I'm not talking about area sampling? Well, that could be something as well,

[00:11:15] but what about the actual employee monitoring if you're putting on some personal samples on individuals? What have your experience is being because I know what mine have been and some have been very good. People were like, tell me what I'm being exposed to.

[00:11:26] So I want to know on one of that, that others like, I don't wanna wear that. That doesn't kind of care. So what does your experience been in that regard? It's been mixed. I have seen where people say, hey, awesome.

[00:11:38] This is great that we're gonna do this every single year and I have had folks who say, so how can I do this and then do my maintenance today? How can I get on my back and my side and I'm laying down and I'm reaching up

[00:11:52] over my head, the screw parts and do stuff? So I think it has been a mixed, mixed bag out there. Most of my work has been over at government sites. So we have not been able to have things we can link the software and the real time monitoring

[00:12:09] and all that. So it's still this kind of like your old fashion place where you have to send the tube out to the lab, the lab has to do it, they send it back to you. So I have not gotten into like the new high tech stuff

[00:12:23] where you can wear it and literally look at your instrument. And for the most part, it's just a very gross estimate too. Like it'll say, hey, your oxygen was at 20.9, the whole day for x hours or something. So it's a really good system

[00:12:43] but you have to have the workplace where you're set up and ready to go for that system. So I'd say it's set up a ready to go and the support from above is the most. Oh yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

[00:12:56] So I have found that with these new ones of course, they're really nice. You don't have to calibrate them. You don't have to. I mean, it's literally super easy to do. And when we think about the one and take you and I did,

[00:13:08] like way back when you got to get like the pump just right and the flow just right and all that stuff. So it's a little more challenging out there. Exposure science covers a broad subject area, including tax ecology and industrial hygiene and risk assessments.

[00:13:29] From occupational community or environmental exposure, exposure scientists apply scientific methodologies to understand exposure risks and apply controls when necessary. We at exposure assessment consulting have this expertise. Please reach out to us at info at exposureconsulting.com for a free 15 minute consultation

[00:13:50] to discuss the specifics of your exposure scenario. Yeah, no, I was gonna say, you know, if you have seen or had any opportunities, so it doesn't sound like you've been able to implement any of these, I'll say, wearable sensors or what have you and your actions.

[00:14:11] Not yet, no. No. I think there is a lot and there's a, you know, it's from what I have heard in our organization, the AHA, that there's a lot of a big push towards using more and more sensors and understanding of the validating

[00:14:28] the data that can come from the sensors to make it even more reliable. I think that's gonna be a place to go in the future in any early career individuals who may be listening. I think that's definitely a place to get up the speed

[00:14:39] and know what the abilities and limitations of some of these sensors and devices are. Because there's a lot, I think it's probably going that route. It's sometimes soon. Absolutely not. We're going. So one thing I wanted to ask you about

[00:14:54] and I kind of asked people this and I have seen it and heard lots of different stories. We've talked about employee monitoring and what the ramifications are, what the data means. Have you, what have your experiences been? I'll say, I'll compare it to historical experiences,

[00:15:10] versus current experiences with OSHA and how they're applying their, I'll say regulation of facilities that you've worked under if you have had those experiences in a health versus safety aspect and how they're kind of looking at the facilities where things have been 30 years ago

[00:15:31] versus how they're doing things in more recent time. Okay, thank you. I would say that for the most part, they've been very focused on the safety side. Now on the health side, they want to see all the different sampling data and all that.

[00:15:46] So you have to sign a, I can't remember what form it is with those guys so that they can look at it and kind of see the employees' names, and all that kind of stuff then too. But it's been very, very positive actually.

[00:16:00] I don't see these guys as being the bad guys or evil, it's really awesome when they can come in and say, you do win a great job, but we have seen where other places have done this because then I could steal much of good stuff

[00:16:13] from those guys too. Because me, I kind of get stuck with, but this is what you're stuck with at your workplace. I know that some people are doing great things and I just haven't talked to them, I haven't discovered it and all that stuff.

[00:16:27] Now when they go to the energy place, paper, mail, all the different places. So they're really seeing a lot of different industries out there too. So for me, it's been a fantastic, really positive experience. And I haven't really seen that much of the change over the years.

[00:16:45] It does look like at times, like currently, they're really focused on things like silica and not kind of stuff then and that was not a big focus in the past. So they're starting to look more at the health aspects.

[00:16:58] I just have not really seen where that's been a change at the places that I've worked out there. Gotcha, no, I appreciate that feedback. I've heard lots of different stories on what they're looking at. So it's great to hear the positive experience

[00:17:11] that you had and learning from them as I think when you're able to be exposed with a number of different industries, like you said, they see lots of things and they see good and bad. Yeah, yeah, you know. You can only imagine things on the stuff

[00:17:24] that they definitely get to see. As far as your experiences with burnt enforcement of OSHA kind of regulations, have you seen them want to, you'd mentioned them looking at the exposure in the health monitoring data. Have you seen them ask for more and more

[00:17:45] about the be submitted or like ask for additional samples? It may not have. Currently, you're saying we think you should kind of do this sampling methodology. Have you seen them give you guidance to say it may be more robust if you do this in this kind of scenario?

[00:17:59] I haven't seen that from a sampling aspect, but I've seen it from going back and confirming your engineering controls. So I have a whole series of lab hoods and so they would like to go back and look at the reading on the lab hood

[00:18:17] and how to figure out your different quadrants, how to come up with your average at a lot of places I worked. You had to have average of 70 CFM going across the face to make sure that nothing's getting back over on the human.

[00:18:32] Anything that was cancer crossing had to be 100 and so that's always been really good. And of course, they have, so they have some different questions like how do you go back and measure it? How to come up with here's your sash, your sash cannot go over this,

[00:18:48] because in an ideal world, they would be awesome to say, hey, it raises up a foot. And that's it. But we all know that's not always logical and reasonable given the experiment you're doing or other things. So that was always really good to go back and look at,

[00:19:06] they have started to have some questions on areas that I never thought before. I do have some flammables inside the hood. So I'm gonna have my CO2 suppression system and all that. So just kind of trying to understand, is it one that's gonna send out a supervisory signal,

[00:19:24] is it going to see that flame and kick off the CO2? Is it gonna give a 15 second siren to kind of give people folk a heads up like run leave because when I think goes off, it's a really violent, I hate to say explosion,

[00:19:41] but just kind of a dispersion maybe. Yes, yes, yes, very good. And it sounds like a shotgun too. So it's really loud to take the same time. Exposure science covers a broad subject area, including toxicology and duster of hygiene and risk assessment. From occupational community or environmental exposure,

[00:20:03] exposure scientists apply scientific methodologies to understand exposure risks in apply controls when necessary. We at exposure assessment consulting have this expertise. Please reach out to us info at exposureconsulting.com for a free 15 minute consultation to discuss the specifics of your exposure scenario.

[00:20:25] So let me ask you a question that is going back to your discussion of chemicals and knowing what's on site and having flambables now in these hoods. Do you have any advice for any early career individuals and they first enter a site

[00:20:36] or first kind of new to a facility? Things that they should check and knowing their hazards, knowing their employees jobs, et cetera? Well, do you have like a top five list of things that people should have a knowledge open they first get on site?

[00:20:51] Well, I say that for me, one of the things I like to do is to literally walk through every door, open up, every single cabinet, really just try and understand things that's out there. I look at the SDS book.

[00:21:06] If it's under things like PSM, I'll look at the PSM or trace out the lines, the diagrams. It's not an uncommon thing when you're working at gigantic chemical plant that you find a pipe that doesn't have a label on it. That, well, I wonder what that is

[00:21:23] and you can walk in both directions and can't find a label, can't find the arrow, can't find anything. So just things, just things like that. I like to also literally look at the book and I wish I could check every single chemical out there about that.

[00:21:43] Obviously, can't just start to open up the cabinet and I have found that you do get stuff that's all the way in the very back and it doesn't mean that it doesn't have a SDS, but it might not have been ordered in a long time

[00:21:55] so it may have the old one on hand. It may have one that's really kind of spotty at best and you could have one that in the meantime, they've had a lot of great data but you have the old data on site then.

[00:22:13] So, and this is one that if you can get some help because it can't be you that does all this. You can't sit down and I have one site that has 247 chemicals. Well, I can't sit down on a call 247 and that there's probably 200 different companies

[00:22:29] but I can't sit down and say, I need to have the latest and greatest out there. So there's a lot of fantastic software companies out there and you sign up and you say, hey, here's, so here's my chemicals and it'll make a list for you

[00:22:45] and it'll give you that most updated sheet out there too. That really helps out. I have found where some companies don't want to pay for that too but to me the cost is really small. I think they were charging about $1 a SDS

[00:23:00] about a time that they make the calls and they do everything and they organize it. I think it's actually money that saved for us, safety guys. So, but, um, I know that it was just a very long answer but you just literally open up everything.

[00:23:16] Try and understand everything. There's going to be a old, crusty guy who doesn't want to talk to anybody. You go find him and you say, let's walk through a couple of scenarios. What are the hazards in your job?

[00:23:31] Because some of these guys, not like they were really educated but they learned over the 30 or 40 years of work in there that maybe they didn't have a safety guy. And after there's a couple of accidents or things, well, they've kind of figured out like, well, I walk here.

[00:23:46] When I see a puddle here, I don't, I don't walk inside that puddle. I'll go left and right and you know, so it is kind of interesting if you kind of watch somebody walk through a place. Well, how are they going left and right

[00:23:58] and are they ducking underneath the pipe to take a short cut? We're doing the tick or tick the aisle as they're supposed to go get from point A to point B. So do you find it valuable for going into these facilities

[00:24:12] to look at what maybe a predecessor had done? Looking at, you know, previous employee monitoring to see what they have monitored for or what the data had shown, it kind of either inform you what historically has been done

[00:24:26] or what you may be able to improve as far as understanding what employee exposure hazards could possibly be. Yes, yes, yes. Any of that data that you can find from the previous person is, is going to be great. It's going to be awesome.

[00:24:41] You can also go back and look up that person's name and if that person is there still, you can then go back and say, oh, it's operator, operator Jones over a unit three. You know, you can wander down to operator Jones at unit three

[00:24:54] and say, hey, I heard that there were some sampling in the past. It's just kind of go over how the, how the guy did it with your everyday job was out there and that really also I think helps to, it helps to build that whole.

[00:25:07] We're just trying to make things better out there and know so some people in the workplace have tried to make things better and they've been beaten down. And so over the years they've just kind of learned that, well, you know, it's just

[00:25:20] the job I just keep keep my mouth shut and I do stuff. Well, if you can talk to them and say so, so how do we make this better? They have some fantastic ideas really good.

[00:25:30] I think it's an, you know, and I have seen it where they kind of view you as I'll just say another arm of their leadership where it's important to convey to them, listen, I'm here for you. He was a protector to you, you know?

[00:25:47] And sometimes people are very receptive of that. Sometimes they're not. So I mean, it very much depends on your approach and how people trust you. And this is I think a lot of this is, you know, we were talking earlier.

[00:25:58] A lot of this is about building trust building those relationships. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I could think about when I was just a young ball-paced boy that I really thought, well, I'm just smart.

[00:26:09] So I say something and people would just sit down, you know, and listen to me and I never have to follow up and then one have to do things. Well, you learn pretty fast that you still have to build that trust out there.

[00:26:20] You know, you just can't walk in and say, yep, I'm just like the other safety guys that you had that all stuck around for a year or two, but you know, like I'm here now.

[00:26:30] You know, so a lot of those guys are thinking that way, you know, every single one of you guys has come in here. You've all had these great plans and not that you didn't, you didn't want to execute these

[00:26:40] plans, but you all left in a year or two, you know? So it's very true. I have seen some of these positions can be revolving doors. And it's not to say that is not in any bad way, but it's just a fact of life.

[00:26:54] You know, it's either there lots of different variables. So one thing I'd like to get your perspective on this and we had talked about earlier and I mentioned early career people and in I have seen from like you said in the

[00:27:09] Dr. Hygiene's standpoint, I've seen it safety too is there has been I'll say a change and who is interested in this field to get them more excited about it. I'll say where I went to the University of South Florida, you know, they started an undergraduate

[00:27:26] program to kind of hype up public health and get it going earlier on. Where do you see I'll say the safety and health profession going as far as individuals that are entering the career path?

[00:27:40] What is going to be needed of them in the future and how that along with advancing technology and sensors and everything else is going to impact them as they proceed in this profession?

[00:27:53] Yes, yes. So I hate to kind of almost pigeonhole safety guys but it almost seems like it's really going to a track that person who wants to do good but you also have to be an independent person. You have to be willing at times to talk to your

[00:28:12] boss and say, well I get it. You want me to work on this stuff but I really have to base my work on what the greatest hazard is and then I can kind of work down.

[00:28:22] Luckily I haven't had it too much but at times I have seen where it almost seems like people want to want to broadcast like this victory and you're kind of like well that's awesome but that's

[00:28:34] not really that big of a hazard. I mean we did take care of it. Let's focus on the big hazards first and then we'll focus on the hazards that are not that. Let's call it the consequence is a

[00:28:46] whole lot lower. The one thing I have found that really helps out is you will run into in the folks who say what's very nice for you on first shift because you work in a very controlled atmosphere,

[00:28:59] you have you have your coffee, you're always working when it sends up and all that but if you really really want to see things come on in on second and third shift. So those are things that

[00:29:10] that young person is going to have to say yeah okay I'm coming in on second and third shift then and sometimes companies don't really want you to do that they want you to have a very structured

[00:29:22] workplace and I do think that some in talking the friends are really scared because they feel really good about safety when you're there but they're not too sure on second and third shift what

[00:29:36] really happens out there. So I think I think that some of them are a little scared about that when it comes to things like sensors and they're really really dive in and understand technology

[00:29:47] now. I mean we're really at that infecie now if you can jump in understand that software, understand what it can and get to and not just stop but go back and challenge these manufacturers out there because they're probably after the ones that they could say oh well historically

[00:30:03] people sample for HCL oh I'll go for HCL and ammonia and I'll go for the big ones but maybe there's a couple of ones that you can find out there still that looks haven't focused on things like

[00:30:16] arsenic or phosphorus or something like that out there still and it's not that they don't care about folks they just literally just don't have that market and so you could have it you could have a mix

[00:30:26] of you know old and new you could also be stuck with I literally can't find anything except just one style this method, this one tube, this one your filter and so you could have a whole mixed

[00:30:39] mix bag out there the key is to sit down figure out the hazards and make sure that you are altering for the hazards not being stubborn in saying the hazards have to alter for me

[00:30:50] you know out there that's a very good point that is important for people understand well David I think you've given us a lot to think about today on the podcast we've talked about exposure monitoring sensors and your experiences and I think that for those that are interested either

[00:31:07] early in this career or moving forward it is going to be a great place for people to be you know there is I think more so now than ever a focus on workplace safety whether it's safety and

[00:31:21] processes or indoor air quality or what have you there's more of a heightened focus on this profession so I appreciate your insight today and your time thank you that Galex if I could

[00:31:34] give you just one one more boring story for those of you who are more so I got into safety I was dating was dating a girl in college and I was just a young guy who was just kind of drifting

[00:31:45] I literally didn't know what I wanted to do I switched majors probably four or five times and just kind of really couldn't find anything and I talked to this guy and it was just like so there's

[00:31:56] a job out there that you're going to do both desk work and office work and you're going to help people and you're going to I was just like wow that sounds awesome and that's great and for me

[00:32:07] safety has really been almost like a calling you know of course I only dated that girl about a month or two but I kept in contact with him for like the next couple of years and it was

[00:32:19] awesome and great just to just literally hear his stories he couldn't he couldn't take me there was workplace and really see things but just to know that it really is out there something that you're really passionate about you know I think that's great and I think you know

[00:32:36] and maybe you know I've seen that maybe talk to people as you did learn the experiences see if you can come shout out somebody or understand what it is to to be exposed to it

[00:32:46] to you stand you know even have a day so you can like you said it's great sometimes you're in the field sometimes you're in the office it's a great mix yeah yeah yeah yeah exactly

[00:32:57] awesome Dr. Eres thank you so much for joining us today the exposure scientists podcast great thank Alex thank you for listening to the exposure scientist podcast you can connect with us at our website expoyourconsulting.com where you can book a private consultation and send in any

[00:33:15] questions regarding any episodes or our guests see you in the next episode