Tackling Indoor Contamination: Insights from the Experts

[00:00:00] You might not realize it, but we are exposed to dozens of hazards every day.

[00:00:05] Can any of these hazards negatively impact your health? Definitely. This is the Exposure Scientist

[00:00:12] Podcast. My name is Alex LeBeau and here we answer your questions and concerns on what you

[00:00:18] may be exposed to every day. Welcome to the Exposure Scientist Podcast.

[00:00:25] The views expressed in this podcast may not be those of the host or management. This podcast is

[00:00:31] for informational purposes only and should not be considered health advice. It is recommended that

[00:00:35] you consult an exposure scientist to discuss the particulars of your exposure scenario.

[00:00:41] Hello and welcome to today's episode of the Exposure Scientist Podcast. We're going to be

[00:00:46] talking about an area that industrial hygienists focus a lot on, but we can't do that job without

[00:00:52] other help. So we're going to focus on the indoor contamination remediation space of this. It's a

[00:00:59] delicate balance between the job, the client, other outside parties like insurance companies,

[00:01:05] remediation contractors, and even consultants like many of us. So who I've had to bring on here to

[00:01:10] discuss that is Kayla McGowan. She is the Editor-in-Chief of Restoration and Remediation Magazine. Kayla,

[00:01:17] welcome to the Exposure Scientist Podcast. Hi, thank you for having me. I appreciate it.

[00:01:23] As Alex said, I am the Editor-in-Chief at R&R. I've been in this space for 10 years. I've seen all

[00:01:31] different facets and this is one space that I am very excited to bridge the gap here with Alex.

[00:01:38] And just full disclosure, Kayla and I had just reported a podcast for her project over at R&R.

[00:01:45] I have recently composed an article for R&R to discuss what we're kind of going to be discussing

[00:01:51] today. I gave the industrial hygiene side, but I'd like Kayla to come on here and talk about the

[00:01:56] complexities of what we have to deal with with remediation and restoration from her perspective

[00:02:03] of what she sees. And, you know, I've known Kayla for a few years now. It was the last time we spoke,

[00:02:10] I gave a co-presentation at IICRC and she was there. So she knows this space. She has very

[00:02:17] firsthand knowledge of it. So I wanted to bring her here to get her expertise in helping us to

[00:02:24] understand the remediation side. Because again, there's lots of strife that goes on between both

[00:02:28] sides. So I want to present the remediation perspective here for us to understand how we

[00:02:34] be more collaborative organizations going forward. So Kayla, if you could just kind of discuss how you

[00:02:41] see the importance of remediating and maintaining healthy indoors from the remediation and restoration

[00:02:46] side against any indoor potential contaminants. I would say, you know, at the end of the day,

[00:02:52] if your space is not healthy, there's going to be constant sickness. You're not going to feel good.

[00:02:57] You're going to expose others to whatever is going on in your space. And this can be from mold,

[00:03:05] smoke, fire, even odor, right? If we wanted to get into it, we can talk about, you know,

[00:03:11] we all have pets or most of us do. And, you know, sometimes they have accidents and well,

[00:03:16] that can cause a problem and health risks for us as well. You know, water is a universal thing too,

[00:03:23] from burst pipes to an overflowing toilet. There's so much risk behind everything that we see on a

[00:03:31] day-to-day. I think that most people see restoration and remediation separate from cleaning, indoor air,

[00:03:39] hygiene, but they're really not. Everything is interconnected. We're all related. You cannot

[00:03:44] have restoration without cleaning and you can't have cleaning without restoration. And well, let's be

[00:03:49] quite honest. You can't have a safe space without the assistance of industrial hygienists in our space,

[00:03:55] because at the end of the day, you guys are an expert in what we are not experts in. And that's

[00:04:01] what is extremely important to me. And I think I said this to you earlier, Alex, if there's one thing

[00:04:06] that I do in my time in this space, it's to bridge the gap between industries that maybe people don't

[00:04:13] think interconnect and that rely on each other. We do, we really do rely on each other. And in order to

[00:04:20] keep our consumers, our customers, our teams safe, we have to rely on one another and utilize each

[00:04:28] other's expertise in order to reach our goal. And that's clean health, safety, livable environments,

[00:04:36] right? At the end of the day. And if it's not clean, if it's not healthy, well, then it's not a

[00:04:41] livable environment for you or your customers. And I think you brought up a great point there.

[00:04:48] You know, there's lots of different hazards that we face in the indoor environment. You brought up

[00:04:53] the one with pets, you know, earlier you had mentioned, you know, there are situations,

[00:04:57] I know industrial hygienists have dealt with situation for hoarders, you know, there's a whole

[00:05:01] different risk present there that listen, we can go and identify the health risks, but we need someone

[00:05:07] to help come in and help mitigate. That's where we look to the restoration and remediation folks to do

[00:05:12] that because they have the expertise and, and going into that space and saying, okay, this is where we

[00:05:17] need to start. Because sometimes you go into those scenarios, you're like, I don't even know where to

[00:05:21] begin. I know there are hazards here. I can identify them. Let's work together to figure out how we can

[00:05:26] best approach this kind of scenario.

[00:05:30] Yeah, I agree. And I think too, that we all like, we've talked about this to collaboration and

[00:05:36] communication are so important. No one knows it all. And I said this a little earlier as well,

[00:05:42] if you think you know it all, it's maybe time to leave the space for a little bit and maybe come back.

[00:05:46] But that's the importance of collaboration. We all have our specialty. We're all experts in our own

[00:05:52] space. But what we do on a regular basis involves multiple professions. It's not just a one track

[00:05:59] job that we have. I mean, we involve insurance carriers, we involve, sometimes there's public

[00:06:05] officials, sometimes we're dealing with the fire department, sometimes we're dealing with local

[00:06:09] legislation. You know, there's so many layers to all of this. And we all have to collaborate in order

[00:06:14] to make the experience what it needs to be, but also get the environment to where it needs to be for

[00:06:22] for those who are helping. Right?

[00:06:24] No, I completely agree. That's a great point. And again, I think we're going to highlight this and

[00:06:28] continue to highlight the importance of collaboration and communication between the

[00:06:33] professions. Because that is the way I think that we're going to be successful in this space.

[00:06:39] As far as again, no matter what problems you face, whether it's mold, mold is the one who always

[00:06:44] gets a lot of the attention. But the AIHA, one of the areas that we're kind of beginning to focus

[00:06:49] more on is, is water quality issues. Now let's talk with Kalish, you know, so they have a lot

[00:06:53] of people who do water remediation. So this is an area we're going to need to know those folks,

[00:06:57] because for some of the water more pathogens we deal with, you know, there are some that are

[00:07:02] some contractors that may be more up to speed on some of those or what needs to be done,

[00:07:06] especially with local regulations, as you said, or problems that they know in this, the area,

[00:07:13] hey, I've dealt with this other spaces, maybe you need to take a look at this as well. I think

[00:07:17] that's a great area for communication and collaboration. I would say to hit this really

[00:07:22] well, you know, water is a common denominator in most emergencies that we face. I mean,

[00:07:29] there's fire and stuff like that. But there's different types of water scenarios too, right?

[00:07:33] You have sewer, right? You have saltwater, that's a totally different ballgame. And then you have,

[00:07:40] you know, freshwater essentially, but you never know what's in that freshwater, right? So here in Las

[00:07:46] Vegas, we have high amounts of fluoride in our water. And, you know, we get our water from Lake

[00:07:54] Mead and they recently had, you know, some bacteria issues and things like that. So it goes so much

[00:08:01] further than what you can see with your eye. There's a part of assessment that needs to take place.

[00:08:07] There's testing that needs to take place because you can't go in and effective, effectively restore

[00:08:12] or remediate without knowing what potential risks are there. And it involves collaborating at the

[00:08:19] end of the day. I think also you can get into the space where water's been there a little too long,

[00:08:23] and you're in high humidity regions, and then mold starts to happen, right? Mold grows rapidly.

[00:08:28] I think a lot of people who are in this space don't know how fast things can change, essentially. And

[00:08:36] consumers don't really either, right? I've been in Florida quite a few times. There's some shows I've

[00:08:41] attended and I've met several people who've actually been affected by mold and have gotten sick. And they

[00:08:48] didn't understand, you know, they were, most of them were tenants renting and they were at the mercy of

[00:08:54] their, their management company. And, you know, unfortunately they didn't have the right people coming in.

[00:09:00] And it was like, oh, just replace things. Oh, just do this. Oh, it's not in your HVAC. And I think that's

[00:09:06] where we as professionals have to collaborate, right? From industrial hygienists to restoration

[00:09:12] and remediation to even HVAC professionals, like those who work towards certifications with NACA,

[00:09:18] you know, the National Air Dupt Association, you know, they have their set of standards,

[00:09:23] they have their set of certifications that bridge into our industries as well. So I think it's really

[00:09:28] interesting to see and understand, you know, not only health risks, but lasting risks, right? Health can be

[00:09:37] immediate, but it can also be lasting too. You can also cross contaminate. And most people don't talk about

[00:09:43] that stuff.

[00:09:44] No, those are, those are all great points. So one thing that you brought up, and I think it's important to,

[00:09:49] to understand here is, you know, we're, when we go in to do a job, we're, we're, we're working, and we're working for a

[00:09:58] client. So can you elaborate on how you see the client's perspective on dealing with, you know,

[00:10:05] if you're the person, as you said, maybe the tenant, you know, how, how do they deal with the industrial

[00:10:10] hygienist, this insurance company, the remediation contractor, you know, how do you see all those

[00:10:14] kind of culminating down to, you know, how we can best serve that client?

[00:10:20] Yeah. So speaking with my consumer hat on, I actually faced a water loss myself. And, you know,

[00:10:27] I'm in Nevada, so we don't really have mold problems. We have more of, you know, mildew and,

[00:10:33] you know, like it's quick, it dries out fast. You know, we don't need to have all the equipment that

[00:10:38] you need to have in other regions. I mean, some scenarios we do, but with my consumer hat on,

[00:10:43] I would definitely say you, you panic. You're like, who do I call? The immediate thing is either

[00:10:48] Google, you don't really call your insurance company. Most people are going to go to Google.

[00:10:52] What do I do for a water damage? What do I do for mold? Right. That's what they're going to do.

[00:10:56] So if you happen to come in contact with this consumer, I think there's, um, we talked about

[00:11:02] this a lot, preparedness, right? As professionals, we need to build these relationships and have a

[00:11:08] preparedness plan essentially. So when we go to the consumer and we see what's going on,

[00:11:12] you inform them about what you see, what's going to be in, what's going to be involved in this process,

[00:11:20] who the parties are so that they understand. And most importantly, if you have the ability to handle

[00:11:27] most of the stuff for your consumer, it will provide them peace of mind and also not get them into,

[00:11:32] you know, weird situations where it's like, um, oh, well, they said to do this, but you're telling me

[00:11:38] to do this. It alleviates that, um, back and forth and maybe the uncertainty, whereas the professionals

[00:11:45] are doing the collaboration on the backend and you have that one POC for, for your client. That makes

[00:11:50] a huge difference. I know we don't oftentimes see that. Unfortunately, we've got, you know,

[00:11:55] the insurance, we've got our contractor. We'll have like the industrial hygienist. Sometimes you'll

[00:12:00] have, if it's a government building or a sitting building, you have officials that you're dealing

[00:12:06] with. And I think the most important thing with my consumer hat on would be someone being able to come

[00:12:12] in and confidently tell me, Hey, this is what's going on. This is going to be a process and there's

[00:12:18] going to be layers to this process. The first one is assessing, right? We need to assess the situation

[00:12:22] and we need to collaborate with the other parties that are involved with us that are going to come

[00:12:27] do work. Most times when people are calling for a water damage or mold, they don't know what to expect.

[00:12:34] Let's be real here. They've never faced it. They're not in our space. So they're trusting you,

[00:12:39] but sometimes it's hard, hard to trust. Right. And I think if we're able to provide that peace of mind

[00:12:46] and that unified front, we can make such a difference and it, it's an easy process for them.

[00:12:54] Right. Um, that's where I think we can all come in and, and make sure that we're doing it

[00:12:59] efficiently and effectively, but the backend portion is us having a plan before we're ever

[00:13:05] facing the client. And I think that sometimes where we, most people are great with collaboration,

[00:13:10] but sometimes that slips through the cracks. Uh, I, I agree. And I'll, I'll, I'll bring up the,

[00:13:16] I've seen, um, for lack of better terminology, I've seen, uh, outside consultants, we have that Superman

[00:13:23] syndrome. I'm coming in to save the day. I don't need to explain to you why I'm saving the day or how

[00:13:29] I am. Just trust me that I am saving the day and here's my expensive bill for it. And then I'll

[00:13:35] see you later. And I think that's, uh, not a great way, uh, to serve those clients. If you,

[00:13:41] as you said, if you're someone who's, who, who doesn't know what they're, you know, never dealt

[00:13:45] with this before or has fear, they're going to need some handhold. And as you said, have a point of

[00:13:51] contact for that person, or if you are the only person doing it, you need to understand that you're

[00:13:55] going to have to spend some time talking with that person. And I think that, you know, this is, I'll

[00:13:59] say customer service that, you know, as, as I think scientists on the industrial hygiene side are not

[00:14:05] great at customer service. And I think either hiring somebody who is good at it or, or recognizing

[00:14:11] that you need to do better customer service is important. And I think you discussed that very well,

[00:14:17] uh, and what you said, cause that's, it's, it's all about making sure the customer's happy

[00:14:21] ultimately. Yeah. And I think we, we, there's no way we can't recognize this to be completely honest.

[00:14:28] You know, if we're talking about high industrial hygienists, you're talking about somebody who's

[00:14:33] gone to school, who is constantly evolving constantly with the change. And they may be

[00:14:39] more of that technical scientific side. And there may not be like that communication that they're great

[00:14:45] at. Right. We have to think about it this way. When you go to the doctor and they're throwing

[00:14:49] medical terminology at you and you're like, can you tell me that in English, please? That's

[00:14:55] ultimately what we're doing when we're in a consumer space, because we're talking about,

[00:15:01] sometimes it's mold contamination and we're talking about air movers, D hues, you know,

[00:15:05] all these things. And they're just like, what are you talking about? When somebody can come in and

[00:15:10] actually say, Hey, we're going to assess, we're going to be placing equipment in your home. We're going

[00:15:15] to be testing, you know, you have to kind of give them step-by-step and handhold and just let them

[00:15:21] know at the end of the day, you're going to take care of them. And sometimes it involves multiple

[00:15:26] parties. No. And I think that's, that's great. And actually, so this is, I think a point where we can

[00:15:34] discuss the collaborative efforts between the remediation contractor and the industrial hygienist.

[00:15:38] And I think it's an area that does not honestly happen enough that there is good communication

[00:15:45] and collaboration. Again, it's, I know best because I'm the expert from our side. And even

[00:15:51] from their side, I know best because I'm the expert is understanding is, you know, as you said,

[00:15:56] getting language that we all understand, not only to comprehend it, but understand why we're doing

[00:16:02] that. So can you explain or at least discuss, you know, at least the remediation contractor,

[00:16:07] the industrial hygienist, having great discussions and, and communication to ultimately help the

[00:16:12] client. Yeah. So I think you said that really well, you know, we, a lot of times we've done things for

[00:16:18] quite some time and, you know, that's just kind of where our mentality is. And I think it's,

[00:16:24] it's a good thing and a bad thing to have, but when you're involving multiple parties and you're

[00:16:29] collaborating, there are going to be compromises. There are going to be debates essentially,

[00:16:35] but at the end of the day, you have to rely on your standards, your data, scientific findings,

[00:16:41] but you also have to depend on what is going on in the specific space. Maybe you haven't seen that

[00:16:47] space on the contractor side. Maybe you haven't really been in that space on the industrial side,

[00:16:51] but you'd like to know, uh, you know, what, what the restorer sees and vice versa. The restorer needs

[00:16:57] to know what you as an industrial hygienist see as well. And we don't make progress without a little

[00:17:05] bit of healthy debate or compromise at the end of the day. Um, you know, we all do it in all aspects

[00:17:12] of our life and this is no different. No one knows it all. And we have to rely on each other's expertise

[00:17:19] in order to help the consumer at the end of the day. So we talked about this earlier as well.

[00:17:25] We come in and we assess, or there's an assessment done. Um, and we were eager to do the work, but

[00:17:31] sometimes there's hidden dangers, right? Whether it's water, fire, mold, illicit drugs, trauma,

[00:17:37] and crime scene, you know, there's so many things that you can be exposed to that you may just not

[00:17:42] see with your eye, or maybe there's something in the air, right? That's a common thing too. There's,

[00:17:48] we talked about fire, have your HVAC running, you've got smoke in your house. Now you have soot,

[00:17:55] you know, I think that's where industrial hygienists come into play. How can we make sure we're doing the

[00:18:01] job right, but how do we make sure we're not using improper means and methods that could

[00:18:06] additionally, you know, open up some exposure that we didn't think of? Um, so again, it just,

[00:18:12] you have to compromise, but it's an educational and formal discussion that is based again on

[00:18:19] data, facts, standards, all of those things. It's not based on, I've been doing this for 30 years,

[00:18:25] and this is the way we're going to do it. Because if we're facing that conversation with that mentality,

[00:18:32] the customer is not of the concern. Um, your practices are what you feel is important. And that's

[00:18:39] not the right approach. And I think we're getting better as an industry, to be completely honest.

[00:18:44] We see a lot of evolution. We've seen a lot of evolution. I've definitely seen it in the last 10

[00:18:48] years, but we have to keep doing it, right? It's one thing for a couple people to do it or several

[00:18:55] people to do it. But if we ever stop doing that, we're doing a disservice to the people that we serve

[00:19:01] on a regular basis. No, I mean, the, the, the customers that you're completely correct. The

[00:19:06] customer is the person that we are ultimately serving here. And a lot of times, uh, I mean,

[00:19:11] I'll, I'll, from all sides, you know, egos will get the best of us. So I think having those

[00:19:16] collaborations, having those discussions, going to a site, walking it together, the industrial

[00:19:21] hygienist and the remediation contractor, using those 30 years of knowledge, not to say, I know how

[00:19:26] things should be done or so, Hey, I've seen this in the past. Maybe you need to watch out for this

[00:19:31] from the remediation contract or industrial hygiene and say, Oh, I've seen this issue during

[00:19:36] these times of the season. Maybe this is something you should consider. We can discuss. We're all

[00:19:41] there not only to help the client, but we're there to help each other, to make sure it's done

[00:19:45] correctly and done correctly the first time, because you don't want to be going back and saying,

[00:19:50] well, well, things weren't done correctly. Now we have to go back and do it. Or they didn't follow

[00:19:54] my advice. And I think this is something we discussed earlier. There's, there's best practices

[00:19:59] and there's nice things to have. And do we focus on the best practices or the nice things? Or I think

[00:20:05] focusing on the best things, the best practices and worrying about the niceties later on is something

[00:20:10] that will benefit. There's going to be a compromise area for everything and make it because there's

[00:20:15] always a budget involved and we'll get to insurance carriers, I think in a little while, but working

[00:20:20] together to understand that we're ultimately working towards one goal and we're trying to get there

[00:20:26] somehow, some way. And the fact that we are butting heads is not going to be that best way.

[00:20:35] No. And I think that there's, there's going to be disagreements. There's going to be,

[00:20:41] you know, reservations about, you know, is this the right thing to do? But I think at the end of the

[00:20:45] day, you said it best, this is for the consumer. Things are going to have to change in order to make

[00:20:52] their environment livable and safe, right? Or if it's their work environment, work, work safe, you know.

[00:21:05] Exposure science covers a broad subject area, including toxicology, industrial hygiene,

[00:21:11] and risk assessment. From occupational, community, or environmental exposure, exposure scientists

[00:21:17] apply scientific methodologies to understand exposure risks and apply controls when necessary.

[00:21:23] We at Exposure Assessment Consulting have this expertise. Please reach out to us at info

[00:21:29] at exposureconsulting.com for a free 15-minute consultation to discuss the specifics of your

[00:21:36] exposure scenario. Right. And it's not, and I, and you know, a lot of times we talk about residential,

[00:21:47] this could be, you know, I'll say not industry, but it could be, you know, hey, we don't want to

[00:21:53] have this portion of the office building or business closed down for two months. How can we most

[00:21:58] effectively reduce the amount of time we have to cease operations there so we can get back up to

[00:22:03] working? So there's different facets, understanding, and even both contractors talking with the owner

[00:22:08] and saying, what is your goal? How can we best serve your goal? And being realistic with them.

[00:22:14] You know, I talked about earlier, I mentioned earlier, you know, science is not always fast.

[00:22:18] You know, explaining to them and having, you know, the remediation contractor may have that

[00:22:22] understanding and be on your side and saying, listen, things are going to take longer than you want,

[00:22:26] just because this is how it has to be done to be done right. So there can be those collaborative

[00:22:32] efforts to present a unified front and helping the client understand, you know, what needs to be done.

[00:22:39] Yeah. And I also think when we're approaching a problem together, it again, provides the peace of

[00:22:44] mind, all of the stuff that needs to happen behind closed doors can happen. And then you,

[00:22:49] we have to remember everything comes back to reputation. Everything comes back to reliability.

[00:22:54] And if you provide that to your customer, chances are, if there's another situation,

[00:23:01] or they know somebody is in the situation, they're going to refer you and you can take care of the

[00:23:06] next person, just like you did the first person. And that's what this is all about. We're changing

[00:23:11] people's lives, one person, one family at a time. And I said this earlier as well, word of mouth and

[00:23:18] peace of mind are the best walking advertisement you could ever have. Because at the end of the day,

[00:23:26] people rely on people's experiences. I mean, how many people go to Yelp and Google reviews to see,

[00:23:32] you know, what a company is doing, then they're going to go to their friends and their family and

[00:23:37] say, have you worked with this person? Or have you, you know, what did they provide for you? You know,

[00:23:42] that's always a means of understanding if you're going to be taken care of. Because like I said,

[00:23:46] we're seeing people on more than likely some of their worst days. If it's a business, like you

[00:23:51] said, closing down for two months isn't ideal. But if we can help them come up with an, a temporary

[00:23:58] situation for them while we're still keeping them safe, they're going to look back and appreciate,

[00:24:04] hey, they did have to close the side of the building down. And it was contained and they had

[00:24:08] to do their work. But they also helped me come up with a plan to keep everybody safe and be able to

[00:24:15] work at the same time. Right. I mean, it may be one of those scenarios where, hey, we decided that

[00:24:21] the best scenario here, which may cost a little more money is, you know, we're going to bring in

[00:24:27] people to work on this area, second and third shift. You work in the building, first shift, the other two

[00:24:32] shifts, we're going to bring people in. So it's not disrupting your business or minimizing it. And those

[00:24:36] are ways that we can address, you know, from the industrial hygiene and say, let's, let's, let's think of

[00:24:43] innovative ways to make sure that things are still operating or businesses. You know, if it's a,

[00:24:47] if it's a, if it's a home, maybe we remediate one room at a time instead of saying move out completely

[00:24:53] or whatever it may be, you know, there are ways that we can build off each other and work together to

[00:24:57] be successful and, and, and maximize the goal of the client. And I would also say too, like you just

[00:25:05] said, there's, you know, restorers and remediators are on the same time. If we have to do things at a

[00:25:11] different time, you know, we will do that. If it keeps your company and business or your home

[00:25:16] functioning, you know, we will be respectful of that. And if there are concerns, you know,

[00:25:22] that's where we would voice our concerns as professionals, right? Hey, I don't think we

[00:25:28] should, you know, take time away from this specific area for 24 hours. I think it needs to be handled.

[00:25:33] You know, there's so many layers to this and this goes back to any industry, right? If we're looking

[00:25:38] at this as a whole, all industries face this and ours is no different. Um, it's just maybe a different

[00:25:45] type of scenario, but we all have to understand we are in almost, it's a hundred percent customer

[00:25:52] service space. It's public service. Um, it's just in a different light. And as professionals,

[00:25:57] we're responsible for not only returning their home or business to normalcy, we're also responsible

[00:26:04] to understand that they have lives. And if we can best serve them and collaborate with our fellow

[00:26:10] professionals and the homeowner, then at the end of the day, we're doing our job. Um, we're keeping

[00:26:15] them safe and there's no secret. There is a shortage of staff labor. Um, so your testing may take two

[00:26:22] months. Our job that may usually take a month could take longer. I mean, you see it all over the country

[00:26:28] right now. Every single industry is struggling for reliable labor and it's no different here.

[00:26:35] It's no different for you. It's no different for fast food. It's no different for our first responders.

[00:26:40] Everybody is facing it. And, you know, if we talk about that and we discuss what's going on, I think

[00:26:47] that again, this goes back to your consumer at the end of the day, what would you like to see as a

[00:26:53] consumer and have that mentality, have that empathy and sympathy and compassion for who you're serving?

[00:27:00] Yes, it's your job, but also you're providing a peace of mind for this person that has no idea what

[00:27:08] to expect. And if we're doing that at the end of the day, we're doing our job correctly and effectively.

[00:27:14] Exposure science covers a broad subject area, including toxicology, industrial hygiene,

[00:27:20] and risk assessment. From occupational, community, or environmental exposure, exposure scientists

[00:27:26] apply scientific methodologies to understand exposure risks and apply controls when necessary.

[00:27:32] We at Exposure Assessment Consulting have this expertise. Please reach out to us at info

[00:27:38] at exposureconsulting.com for a free 15-minute consultation to discuss the specifics of your exposure

[00:27:45] scenario. One area I want to discuss, and you kind of mentioned it, is, you know, how the long things

[00:27:53] are taking. You know, there's increased length of time, whether it's sourcing products to use within

[00:28:00] the building materials, whether it's getting labor, whether it's getting tests done correctly, or what

[00:28:06] have you. Things are taking longer, and they're obviously, again, certain ways of doing things. Can you

[00:28:11] discuss a little bit how you see the, I'll say, the collaborations and communications between the

[00:28:18] remediation and the restoration contractor and the industrial hygienist when working, because a lot of

[00:28:23] times these are covered by insurance policies or insurance claims. Can you talk about those collaborative

[00:28:28] efforts in working to help the insurance side of things understand why things may be taking longer,

[00:28:35] or why things have to be done in a certain way, as opposed to the way that they say, well, we're giving you a

[00:28:41] budget, and this is how we see it. Yeah, I think this ultimately comes down to the industrial hygienists

[00:28:47] and their restoration and remediation professionals to come together and discuss what needs to be said

[00:28:53] and proven, right? Because at the end of the day, it's not, hey, I want to do this. This is why we're

[00:28:58] doing it. It's no, hey, look at this. This is why we're doing it. Whether it's a law, a regulation,

[00:29:04] a standard, you know, whether it's safety too, I think plays a huge role in it. And then when you go to

[00:29:10] the carrier, you're a united front, it's usually, I would recommend probably a one person as your POC,

[00:29:16] because I think that's where we get in trouble a lot oftentimes with insurance or even working with

[00:29:24] other professionals in the space. You have so many people talking, things get lost in translation.

[00:29:29] And so at the end of the day, I would say, come together with all your findings and then present

[00:29:33] them, right? The whys, the science behind it, the data behind it. You know, I think negotiation and

[00:29:40] compromise also goes into that realm, right? The insurance has their job to do at the end of the

[00:29:45] day. And we as professionals have our job to do at the end of the day. And we have to remember that the

[00:29:50] consumer is that common piece. And so if we are able to professionally communicate why things are doing,

[00:29:59] being done the way that they are, I think that makes a huge difference. You know, there's,

[00:30:02] I recently wrote a piece too, about the us versus them mentality, right?

[00:30:07] A lot of times we see people with the us versus them. I mean, you see it in car insurance too, even,

[00:30:13] you know, you feel like, well, I pay you insurance, but you don't want to cover me for things. It's the

[00:30:18] same thing in our space too. And if we're able to go with all of the data, all of the facts and

[00:30:24] communicate professionally and talk about things and make sure that we're, we're getting the common

[00:30:31] ground that needs to be done. It'll make a difference. It may take 10 touch points, but you

[00:30:36] also have to remember those touch points are necessary. Maybe you have to break it down into

[00:30:41] pieces. And I, I've seen it on several levels. Um, I have seen and heard multiple calls where,

[00:30:48] you know, there's four touch points, each call, you accomplish something that is very specific and

[00:30:54] then you'll call again and do, it's just the name of the game right now. And we're not talking about

[00:31:00] a space where you had the same adjuster, the same POC for insurance. It's not 20 years ago. We're in a

[00:31:08] space where turnover is very high and you have to approach it person to person, not again, us versus

[00:31:16] them mentality. Um, and you can see success with collaborating on the backend and then coming

[00:31:23] as a United front. So if the insurance carrier or, or their manager, whoever calls the industrial

[00:31:29] hygienist, they're going to get the same story that the restorer, the remediators giving. And then if

[00:31:34] you're really great at this, you're telling the consumer this. And if the insurance happens to call

[00:31:39] the consumer, they're usually going to defer or they're going to say, yes, I already knew they

[00:31:45] talked to me about it. And then that's how we, you know, get to that common ground and goal.

[00:31:51] It's a very long process, but if we do it properly, we're doing our due diligence and it'll happen.

[00:31:59] It just takes time. Um, and that's the nicest thing to say is it just takes time. Honestly,

[00:32:07] um, nothing happens overnight in the world of restoration and remediation. Same thing with

[00:32:12] industrial hygiene, same thing with insurance. I mean, we see it, we're in the world of instant

[00:32:18] gratification, but not all things happen that way. Um, I think it's, there's a saying, you know,

[00:32:24] great things come to those who wait and it's the same thing for what we do. You're not going to have

[00:32:31] your environment where you need to have it overnight. It takes time.

[00:32:36] No, I think that's, that's a great point is there's you're right. We're I'm awful with instant

[00:32:41] gratification. I know lots of other people are, we, we have our smart devices with us all the time,

[00:32:46] uh, love it or hate it, but we get that, we get that instant. You know, I can have something from

[00:32:51] Amazon here in the afternoon if I wanted to. So yeah, it's, it's understanding that there are

[00:32:56] times that it takes a lot longer than you want it to and helping people understand why it's the,

[00:33:02] why, see explaining. And it's interesting. You brought up also the insurance carriers and others

[00:33:07] is, you know, I've seen a rise or increase, I'll say of third party adjusters getting involved here.

[00:33:13] And, you know, they use different groups and organizations and some third party adjusters

[00:33:17] are very keen and aware of what goes into this, but there are some other people who don't deal a lot

[00:33:22] with the space and they just, this gets dumped to them and they, they have lots of questions.

[00:33:27] And why is this like this? Why do we have to do things? Why can't we do it? You know,

[00:33:32] and it's, it's almost like a continual education of everyone involved of why things have to be done

[00:33:39] the way they are and helping those third party adjusters understand this is just how things are.

[00:33:45] And having, again, as you said, that unified front, uh, is paramount to getting that done

[00:33:50] and getting things done successfully. Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, you know,

[00:33:55] collaboration is always going to be key in everything that we do from you collaborating with your team

[00:34:01] to you collaborating with additional vendors or professionals in the space. And without

[00:34:07] collaboration, again, we are not, we're doing a disservice to those who we are serving.

[00:34:13] I also think too, you know, we all, again, we're all consumers at the end of the day. And if you were

[00:34:20] faced with something, what would you want to be your experience? And if you think about that being a

[00:34:27] consumer, you're going to do so much good in this space, right? You're going to take that customer

[00:34:34] service to the next level. Um, you're going to actually lead by example. At least that's how I

[00:34:39] feel and see, you know, it may take longer, but what are the end results? Right. Um, I think we've seen

[00:34:47] it, um, in several instances where, you know, it wasn't done right. And so you have to do it twice.

[00:34:53] And so is that the goal or is the goal to do it right the first time and have the peace of mind

[00:35:00] for a longing, a longer period. And that's the goal. The ultimate goal is to do it right,

[00:35:06] provide a safe space, provide a clean space, provide a healthy space. And to do that,

[00:35:12] if there's so many layers, there's so many people involved, um, you know, and I think that's why

[00:35:18] there's legislation. That's why there's standards. That's why there's volunteers that take their time

[00:35:24] to say, you know, Hey, I'm here. If you have questions, I'm here. If I don't know the answer,

[00:35:29] I'm going to refer you. Right. So for me, I have an aspect of, I see things and I observe them,

[00:35:35] right? I am no expert in this space as far as technical or anything like that. In my side of the

[00:35:42] space is I do a good job of thinking about what the consumer would want because I am a consumer.

[00:35:48] That's how I came into this industry. I was a consumer. I faced my own loss and, you know,

[00:35:54] we all have our own areas of expertise, you know, and for me, I'm not going to sit here and say,

[00:36:00] I know it all, but for us to, to be great at what we do, communication and collaboration is always at

[00:36:07] the forefront. It doesn't matter if you've been in this industry for 50 years, 10 years, or you're

[00:36:12] brand new to this industry. We all have something to bring. And even the insurance carriers, right?

[00:36:17] You talked about third parties and some of them really know what's going on because they may have

[00:36:23] come from the restoration side or remediation side, or they may have come from, you know,

[00:36:28] a private carrier or what have you. And they have that information, but a lot of times people come

[00:36:33] into this space because they see money and we run into that. And that's, it's no secret. That's every

[00:36:38] industry. Again, people see dollar signs and they're going to go to those dollar signs or what they think

[00:36:44] are dollar signs. And so it's our job to make sure that we are working together, even if it's a long

[00:36:51] process, or even if you don't, even if you're constantly have to compromise, that's what this

[00:36:57] is all about. And it's done professionally, intelligently, and efficiently, not yelling,

[00:37:04] not us versus them, because at the end of the day, the common goal remains the same,

[00:37:08] you know, taking care of our customers. Now you brought up an interesting thought of, you know,

[00:37:15] the, I agree, you know, there are the, the want to just get in there of some people and just make

[00:37:23] money. I mean, there are states that are trying to address that again. I'm, I'm, I'm in Florida.

[00:37:28] We have a licensed mold assessors, which I am one. We have licensed remediation assessors,

[00:37:33] remediation contractors, you know, other states are, are, are looking into that. You know, there are

[00:37:38] also the new, the new guidance and regulations by IICRC that have come out and talk about the,

[00:37:46] you know, indoor professionals, you know, getting those people. It's all about, you know, getting

[00:37:50] people who are knowledgeable in this space to ensure that you're getting, I'll say a good product

[00:37:56] in the end. And that's, and that's difficult. So, so how do you see the, the change in other

[00:38:04] states enacting legislation, whether it's for remediations or, you know, there are some that

[00:38:10] are trying to enact and have an act, indoor environmental quality regulations. You know,

[00:38:15] how do you see the restoration contractor playing into those states that now have rules that say,

[00:38:21] this is what has to be done our way, even though, and there may be conflict with what the industry,

[00:38:28] I'll say standard is for addressing those spaces. That's a really good question. I think like it is

[00:38:34] state by state, right? Standards are meant to be a guideline essentially, right? When there's law

[00:38:43] and regulation involved, you know, if you as a professional realize something is incorrect,

[00:38:48] you have the ability to, to bring that up and say, Hey, I think this is incorrect, or I think we

[00:38:54] need to amend this. You know, you have the organizations like the IICRC, NORMI, AIHA, you know,

[00:39:01] that have the ability or have an arm that is specifically for this type of, of challenge. It is

[00:39:08] a challenge. And it takes time. And I think this, this is going to be one of those things where

[00:39:15] it takes time. Once it's implemented somewhere else, then others will follow suit. And I think

[00:39:20] we've kind of seen that, you know, there's, you see it a little bit more often now it's still taking

[00:39:24] a lot of time, but really as a professional, if you think something is incorrect, or maybe it's too

[00:39:31] vague. I think we see that all the time, you know, with laws and regulations, it's like,

[00:39:36] or rules, you know, you see something and you're like, well, does this scenario apply to this?

[00:39:40] Because the wording doesn't make it seem like it applies to this. There's loopholes, just like

[00:39:45] there is to everything else. And I think we as professionals, you know, get with your local

[00:39:50] groups or get with your local, you know, public figure who's going to be able to help you

[00:39:57] implement these things. And again, collaborate. That's the important thing at the end of the day,

[00:40:04] because you may know something is incorrect, or you may say, Hey, things have changed. Industry

[00:40:10] standards have changed. You know, I think there's some legislation out there that mentions,

[00:40:15] you know, a specific edition of a standard or a, you know, something specific in time.

[00:40:20] And so like evolution, you have to go back and say, Hey, this has changed. And you are just as

[00:40:28] responsible of those who helped implement it as a professional to say, Hey, maybe the standard has

[00:40:33] changed, or Hey, maybe we don't do this anymore. We do something else. And in order to do that,

[00:40:38] I think it just takes the time to collaborate, the time to communicate it ultimately looking at things,

[00:40:46] taking your own notes, and then going from there, because you can't implement legislation or try to

[00:40:54] without knowing what you're walking into. And again, collaboration, I can't stress this enough.

[00:41:00] It's collaboration on all fronts, right?

[00:41:04] No, I agree. And I appreciate that because again, like you said, some, some rules and laws are vague,

[00:41:09] you know, even, and I'm sure the restoration community has to deal with this, you know,

[00:41:15] even if it may be an issue where there's a public health entity involved and they're requesting things

[00:41:23] being done a certain way. And that's where, and in, in the remediation contractor and the

[00:41:28] industrial hygienist may say, no, that's not right. Why are you asking for that? So that's again,

[00:41:32] a unified front where we can say, listen, you, if you have good scientific background or backing for

[00:41:39] why you're recommending something and showing them why they may not, their way is not the best way,

[00:41:44] then that's a great way to succeed in this is, you know, that collaborative effort to show that,

[00:41:52] listen, we have the experience. We've been doing this for many years, not saying that we know

[00:41:56] everything, but the science backs this process over the one that you're recommending, or even the one

[00:42:02] that may be mentioned in the law, especially as you said, it may be a vague law.

[00:42:06] Well, it's also okay to defer to, right? Like you may not know, and it may be, Hey, I know this

[00:42:12] portion of what I'm seeing, but I think there's another piece that needs to be answered by an

[00:42:18] industrial hygienist or, you know, whoever, whatever, whatever other party you need to have involved,

[00:42:24] because we could get ourselves into trouble just like anybody else can, you know, if it's very

[00:42:30] narrow minded or one dimensional, you know, there's like, what we do is there's layers. Right. And so I

[00:42:35] think if you don't know, it's okay that you don't know you can defer and then you learn something.

[00:42:39] And I think that's what makes, you know, these initiatives so important because it's not just

[00:42:46] one or two groups going to try and to do this. It's multiple. And if it's not just groups,

[00:42:52] it's individuals, whether it's somebody at the state county or, you know, federal level, there's,

[00:42:59] there's masses coming and saying, Hey, this is an issue. Um, and that's how we make this space

[00:43:05] better. I also think too, this is part of the educational side that we provide to our consumers

[00:43:11] like, Hey, we're doing this based on, excuse me, regulations or laws or what have you, or for

[00:43:18] places that those are not in place. You can, you know, refer industry standards and show them,

[00:43:25] you know, this is a consensus based document and you have people from all over that are discussing

[00:43:30] things like this. And so your consumers can understand why things take time, why it's

[00:43:35] important to have things done. And then eventually it could translate into legislation or something

[00:43:41] like that. And again, it just takes time and collaboration at the end of the day.

[00:43:45] So I, and I appreciate that. So based on, on what you said, there's a, the collaboration.

[00:43:50] So you've been in the space for a while, pardon me. I'd like to understand what your success stories

[00:43:56] that you've identified, uh, have been, you know, what, where have you seen the positives now? I don't,

[00:44:02] I mean, we can talk about the negatives. I'm sure plenty of people have them. I don't want to talk

[00:44:06] about them. Now I want to talk about the positives. Where have you seen like good interactions of moving

[00:44:12] the profession forward, either together or on your own on, on getting things better in this space?

[00:44:19] Yeah. So I think that's a really good question. I think I've seen a couple of different things and

[00:44:23] I will definitely say one thing that definitely sticks out to me in my time in this space is

[00:44:29] when I first started in the industry, there was a lot of separation. Um, and I think that's

[00:44:35] again, in every industry and it takes time, collaboration takes time. And I've seen collaboration

[00:44:43] be a main initiative and it's made the world of a difference in this space. And I think the next

[00:44:50] layer of this is involving industrial hygienists like yourself. Like I said, I think we have to

[00:44:57] collaborate. There's so many avenues. And that's one thing that I will commend this industry for. Um,

[00:45:04] we are doing a really great job at collaborating again, takes time. Good things take time. And,

[00:45:10] um, it's been a process, but I think all of it is starting to pay off. And that's one thing that

[00:45:15] I'm extremely proud of, um, is because I've, I've been able to be part of some of those conversations

[00:45:20] and see the important role that collaboration plays, you know, from partnerships to, you know,

[00:45:27] getting people to help write standards or people to, um, you know, give their thoughts and opinions

[00:45:33] on things, whether it's on the trade show floor or just a phone call or, you know, emails. I think

[00:45:39] that that's one of the biggest things is collaboration has been one of the best things that I have seen

[00:45:44] because we're able to evolve, right? There's no evolution without communication and collaboration.

[00:45:49] So that's one of the things that I've definitely seen. Um, another thing that I would definitely say

[00:45:54] that I, I think is so important is the consumer understanding that the consumer is at the

[00:46:02] forefront. Sometimes it means putting your ego aside. Sometimes it means compromise. Sometimes

[00:46:07] it means, you know, maybe your way, isn't going to be the way that we go this time, but next time it

[00:46:14] could be. And I think, um, it took time to get here. I know that in the future it will also evolve

[00:46:20] a little bit more, but I would also say awareness. Awareness is starting to become a thing. Um, as far

[00:46:27] as who restoration and remediation professionals are, um, I would be lying if I said that I knew what role

[00:46:34] they played prior to coming into this industry. I knew who Stanley Seamer was and service master and

[00:46:39] I knew who they were, but I didn't understand what they did as a whole. And I think that there's some

[00:46:47] things that are going on that allow consumers to see what impact is being made. So for example,

[00:46:54] in Florida, they have a conference. I can't remember the name. I'm blanking for the life of me,

[00:47:00] but it's in February. It's usually around like the Superbowl. I went to this, this specific event

[00:47:05] and they actually televised there that it's open to the public and it's free. And it's a,

[00:47:11] it's a disaster conference. It it'll come to me eventually, but they allow consumers to come in

[00:47:16] for free and they televise it and say, you know, this is what's going on. You can come here. And

[00:47:21] you know, that's how I met a lot of individuals who actually had been sick from mold. And I think

[00:47:27] those types of things where we are able to include the consumer make a world of difference. And that

[00:47:33] it could have been a thing when I first came into the industry, but I didn't really

[00:47:36] see it. And I think those are some really big wins. Um, I also see cross collaboration through

[00:47:45] industries, right? Like one of my main goals is having industrial hygienists be in our space a

[00:47:49] little bit more. Um, it's extremely important. Same thing with health and safety professionals,

[00:47:54] right? Um, it's huge to have that across the board. You could be a health and safety person and not

[00:48:00] be in our space, but be able to come in and say, Hey, there's some things that I've noticed. Right.

[00:48:05] Um, same thing with, you know, our HVAC professionals in the indoor space, there's things that they can

[00:48:12] bring over to us. Same thing with law enforcement. We can actually help law enforcement with assessing,

[00:48:18] you know, holistic drugs and things like that. We would also rely on industrial hygienists for that,

[00:48:23] because again, there's things that we can't see. And I think those are the things that I've

[00:48:27] slowly started to see implemented. And I think that in due time, we'll be able to look back in

[00:48:32] about 10 years and say, wow, we talked about this and this is really happening, you know?

[00:48:37] Right. No, and I appreciate that. And full disclosure, um, you know, talking about collaboration

[00:48:42] and working together, uh, Kayla has given me the opportunity to write an article for R&R. It's

[00:48:48] going to be coming out in December of 24. Um, and that's what our podcast was about earlier is

[00:48:54] discussing that article. So she is fully on board, uh, for these collaborative efforts. And again,

[00:48:59] I appreciate her giving us that opportunity to do that because it's, it's opening that discussion.

[00:49:04] And this is, you know, we, we talked about this on the, on the podcast previously is

[00:49:10] get in other spaces, go talk to different organizations outside of us as industrial

[00:49:14] hygienists, talk to them, why we do things, explain to them why we do things. And that will be a great

[00:49:20] referral system for us. So she has given me the opportunity to do that. And I'm happy for that.

[00:49:25] I'm thankful. So I appreciate that. Yeah, you're so welcome. I think when, when we first met years

[00:49:31] ago, when I was at the IICRC, I was really moved by what you were talking about and, um, the person

[00:49:39] you co-collaborated with on that webinar, um, at the time it was for certified firms, but I think

[00:49:44] that the industry as a whole can benefit, whether you are new to this industry, whether you have been

[00:49:50] in this industry for 50 years, there's just things that we need to rely on one another, right?

[00:49:55] We, we have a specific technical skillset and expertise, but when it comes to industrial hygiene,

[00:50:03] hygiene, it's different. We don't touch that stuff. We don't, I mean, we know it, we know what it entails,

[00:50:09] but we're not the professionals. We're not the experts. And S and most times we can actually

[00:50:16] collaborate and make a world of difference, but also spread the knowledge. And then referrals

[00:50:21] are going to come in. You're going to be able to work with somebody on a regular basis that you trust.

[00:50:26] They're going to be an extended portion of your team essentially. And that's what the most important

[00:50:32] thing is. Like I said, we're touching people's lives one at a time, but that's the difference,

[00:50:36] you know, and collaboration is, is so big in this and we all have something to learn from one another.

[00:50:43] And I think that's, that's why when, when we were able to connect on this situation, um, indoor air,

[00:50:51] um, health cleaning, safety is so huge in what we do on the restoration and remediation side. Again,

[00:50:59] they're all related. Same thing. If we're going to assessment and inspection, it's a whole

[00:51:04] collaborative effort and we need to rely on one another. Um, and so if we touch a couple of people's

[00:51:09] lives and then they go and talk about it, we've done our due diligence, we've done our job. And

[00:51:13] that's, that's what we're here for at the end of the day, right? That's the goal just to help.

[00:51:17] And it means using people outside of your, your immediate industry.

[00:51:23] I think that sums it up perfectly. And I, I, I appreciate all of your insight today. I appreciate

[00:51:29] all of your time. So Kayla, thank you so much for joining us on today's episode of the exposure

[00:51:34] scientist podcast. Thank you. Thank you for listening to the exposure scientist podcast.

[00:51:41] You can connect with us at our website, exposure consulting.com where you can book a private

[00:51:46] consultation and send in any questions regarding any episodes or our guests. See you on the next episode.