Navigating Restoration Challenges: The Crucial Role of Industrial Hygienists

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[00:00:40] Hello and welcome to today's edition of the Exposure Scientist Podcast.

[00:00:46] Today we are going to be talking about restoration challenges and the importance of industrial

[00:00:51] hygienists, the importance of cooperative engagement to ensure safety during restoration projects.

[00:00:57] My guest today is Tom Barzak for Terracon and Tom would have you introduce yourself and

[00:01:01] tell us about your knowledge in this area.

[00:01:03] Tom Barzak Yeah great, thank you so much for inviting

[00:01:06] me and having me on this podcast.

[00:01:07] I look forward to this conversation and just bringing some awareness to both the

[00:01:12] industrial hygienist role and the restoration events.

[00:01:15] So I've been working in industrial hygiene in the past 20-22 years really focused

[00:01:19] on underwear quality and also in the restoration events.

[00:01:23] How restoration events occur, the impact and how to restore.

[00:01:29] A lot of work with underwear quality has been from mold asbestos, hazardous building materials

[00:01:33] and as of late I think it's important we should discuss is dealing with the illicit

[00:01:37] drugs as well and these other agents that a lot of times aren't thought about.

[00:01:42] So raise some awareness around those too.

[00:01:45] Tom Barzak Sure and we'll get into that.

[00:01:47] I've worked with Tom in a previous company that was at and had some interactions with him

[00:01:52] on some of those illicit drug interactions or problems.

[00:01:54] So I'm sure we'll get into that at some point today but you know the importance here is

[00:02:00] identifying this restoration kind of market.

[00:02:03] So could you kind of give us an idea of what the market currently is for restoration

[00:02:07] projects where they're focusing or maybe there's a change since there's a new focus

[00:02:12] on improving indoor air quality?

[00:02:15] Tom Barzak Yeah absolutely.

[00:02:16] Right now the market is expanding.

[00:02:19] There's a lot of activity in the restoration market which I think is a great time for us

[00:02:23] to increase our awareness and involvement in this market.

[00:02:26] Several years ago if you're not familiar Blackstone Purchase Serve Pro and so what

[00:02:32] we're seeing now that really tipping point of these large private equity firms purchasing

[00:02:37] restoration companies.

[00:02:39] So you got to ask why?

[00:02:40] What's going on?

[00:02:41] What's the activity?

[00:02:43] The market is seeing record profits, record growth, expansions.

[00:02:47] A lot of companies or several companies are purchasing smaller groups.

[00:02:52] These mergers we're seeing more and more.

[00:02:54] So I think that just helps us recognize okay there's activity in the marketplace,

[00:02:59] how is it impacting restoration services and how is it impacting the safety and health

[00:03:04] of the both buildings, the occupants.

[00:03:07] So right now with this activity going on and I'm not seeing the increase in training

[00:03:12] or certifications or regulations.

[00:03:15] So I think that's also important for us to grow.

[00:03:18] But the engagement with Industrial Hygiene with a well rounded team I think should be

[00:03:23] our focus.

[00:03:24] Tom Barzak Sure and it's interesting you brought that

[00:03:26] up about the acquisitions.

[00:03:28] I think within the Industrial Hygiene kind of profession as well we've seen a lot

[00:03:32] of acquisitions of smaller firms into larger firms and you know that training and

[00:03:39] learning process about the restoration because if it's a larger firm that has typically done

[00:03:44] restoration and they bring in a smaller firm that doesn't, those people may be new to the

[00:03:48] restoration process.

[00:03:49] So kind of getting them to understand what the problems are in either the indoor air

[00:03:55] quality space or indoor environmental quality or the restoration process itself is probably

[00:03:59] important as well.

[00:04:00] Tom Barzak Absolutely.

[00:04:02] What is training?

[00:04:04] What is that certification that we're going to require?

[00:04:06] That uniform process all that should be evaluated and looked at.

[00:04:11] I also want to point out too though that you know we're seeing a lot of record increase

[00:04:18] in events in larger events more named storms not just hurricanes you know but we've had

[00:04:24] everything from a record snowfall events freezes pipe breaks to the flooding events

[00:04:28] in the West Coast.

[00:04:29] We've seen an increase in natural disasters restoration large events.

[00:04:34] We're also seeing more complex buildings you know so we need to again take a broader

[00:04:39] look at the entire environment I'm only expecting more and more of these storms to happen

[00:04:45] and these are devastating storms so a broader approach is needed there too.

[00:04:49] Tom Barzak Would you say and I've seen statistics

[00:04:53] on this as far as restorations and what problems are occurring from that and

[00:04:59] the impacts from environmental events would you say in your experience have you seen that

[00:05:07] deferred maintenance in these facilities as also contributed to the restoration project

[00:05:11] problems?

[00:05:12] Tom Barzak Yeah that deferred maintenance absolutely

[00:05:14] as you you know when you open a wall cavity or you're restoring you know certain areas

[00:05:20] within a building those surprises that happen okay this wasn't noticed or it was

[00:05:24] noticed wasn't corrected now the event goes from a smaller localized area to a much broader

[00:05:30] spectrum now we're dealing with multiple rooms multiple areas versus one isolated event

[00:05:36] and the impacts are only greater you got a small roof leak that now can turn into a massive

[00:05:40] damage to the entire building.

[00:05:42] Tom Barzak Yeah no I mean that makes perfect sense

[00:05:45] or you know I have you've probably seen you know we're talking about indoor air

[00:05:49] quality and maintenance on older HVAC systems that are not being cleaned properly or not

[00:05:58] being maintained with an annual service inspection or something like that that's just causing

[00:06:03] much greater problems let's say the AC is not working as efficiently as it would leading

[00:06:08] to humidity problems and it just kind of blows up from there the problems you know

[00:06:14] as you said you may be looking initially at the localized event but realize it's

[00:06:17] much bigger the scope definitely has changed on your project.

[00:06:21] Tom Barzak Yeah you know back in the early 2000s one

[00:06:23] of the greatest things that we identified was you've designed building system HVAC systems

[00:06:28] as you mentioned to condition a building but then you put wallpaper you know that vinyl

[00:06:35] wrapping on the interior along exterior walls so now you've created a moisture barrier

[00:06:40] well the system wasn't designed for that you got to control that moisture barrier

[00:06:45] and so every time you removed wallpaper you know a lot of these buildings we found microbial

[00:06:49] growth and now that has to be addressed it's not localized a lot of these are building

[00:06:53] wide so really expands that the project immensely.

[00:06:58] Tom Barzak Yeah no I mean that definitely is a

[00:07:01] problem as I always like to say from the get everyone involved from the design initial

[00:07:09] phases of the building industrial hygienists engineers architects whatever it may be

[00:07:14] even interior designers because if they're going to change the dynamics of the building

[00:07:18] as you said it's not going to be operating as designed and intended it's going to be

[00:07:22] changing the whatever kind of ratios maybe in there for airflow or air exchanges and

[00:07:27] it just creates problems.

[00:07:28] Tom Barzak Yeah it definitely exasperates them.

[00:07:31] Tom Barzak So as far as the restoration process how have you seen industrial hygienists

[00:07:42] I don't know you've been doing this for 22 years how have you seen industrial hygiene

[00:07:47] I'll just say change from its traditional roles to embracing indoor air quality or indoor

[00:07:56] environmental quality from a I'll just say a community standpoint your building

[00:08:00] standpoint of building science kind of view.

[00:08:03] Tom Barzak Yeah a great question and I think this

[00:08:05] is a key point where industrial hygienists and you get much more engaged and involved

[00:08:10] so typically back in the day let's say 20 years ago industrial hygienists were always

[00:08:13] brought in as an afterthought right typically we were brought in to do a clearance test you know

[00:08:18] mold testing was probably one of the first ones yes as fast as hazardous building testing

[00:08:24] but those are always afterthoughts we weren't part of the team to help restore the building

[00:08:28] it was in response to a microbe growth per se.

[00:08:32] You know industrial hygienists that the coin phrase they call us

[00:08:37] I hope that could change someday because what is industrial hygienists what's their focus you

[00:08:41] know that's not the best describer of what we can offer what we can do.

[00:08:46] Then when you get to these complex problems sometimes you are brought in

[00:08:50] to help provide that component that key component that's that's necessary.

[00:08:55] I love working on healthcare projects because a lot of healthcare communities they do what's

[00:08:59] called the huddle and so they bring an expert fund facilities and environmental services and

[00:09:04] IH all these team members come together and they form a well rounded team they've got this history

[00:09:10] that's I'm hoping that we can insert ourselves on that team when needed.

[00:09:15] It's not always the case and a lot of times you know insurance companies and there are

[00:09:19] the drivers a lot of times of of what we do in the event but we're a key component on that team

[00:09:28] how has it changed I think the awareness of us is out there I think safety is not

[00:09:34] nearly what it should be that safety component how can we be safe at this I also think source

[00:09:39] identification is a key point that we should be much more involved in so that you can build a

[00:09:44] restoration scope around the element or the agent itself that sources is critical and we can be

[00:09:52] part of that solution and then also not just creating the project scope but the clearance

[00:09:58] requirements what does clean mean what what does the end result what are we looking for

[00:10:03] how do we identify that the project has been done well and is complete I think we need to be a much

[00:10:08] more component in piece of that too. It's interesting you you brought that up and you had very good

[00:10:15] points there and I'll challenge you with some thoughts here I mean the reason I mean as you

[00:10:21] said traditionally we refer to as industrial hygienists it's been that way for 70 80 years or so

[00:10:28] when industry was a big thing but now it's it's manufacturing is minimized and our all this

[00:10:34] say scope is kind of growing to as far as what we are involved in you know I the reason this is

[00:10:41] titled the exposure scientists is that's kind of what we are we value we evaluate exposures we use

[00:10:45] our scientific knowledge to identify exposures to minimize risks to evaluate safety and to

[00:10:50] target that one particular item or subject matter that we're looking for to reduce exposure

[00:10:57] or to mitigate it one thing that you mentioned that was interesting was the thought that we should be

[00:11:07] integrated from a I'll say proactive stance I have always tried to do this or approach my

[00:11:16] interactions with people from proactive as you said years ago we were always viewed as a

[00:11:20] react if we come in on the other one and it is always and I it seems like an uphill battle to be

[00:11:27] on the proactive side I've tried a lot of times to be on the front end of it but you know when it

[00:11:34] comes to having funding from a proactive stance it seems to be very difficult there's often as

[00:11:40] you said insurance companies or otherwise there always seems to be funding on the reactive

[00:11:43] end of it but helping people return or understand that there's a return on investment having

[00:11:48] for us from a proactive approach seems to be better I don't know why I'd like to hear your

[00:11:53] experience from that proactive side if I could yeah I'm hoping that you know the call to action

[00:11:58] as part of this podcast we can get there I think that's a massive call to action a proactive plan

[00:12:04] what are you going to do to respond to both the little incidents to let's say the catastrophic

[00:12:10] large events you should have a plan a team in place today in order to respond to that

[00:12:16] and if you don't that's an action on it for you if you're a building owner and or manager

[00:12:21] especially if it's a large residential multifamily or if it's a manufacturing you really need that

[00:12:27] plan in place today one thing that I get frustrated a little bit about is you know people don't

[00:12:34] understand mitigation they don't understand psychrometrics those are some basic things

[00:12:38] that we do in restoration but yet you're making a decision to who you want to hire not understanding

[00:12:44] the industry not understanding what fans do deamidifiers so you really need to think about that

[00:12:49] in a proactively tell me more about that how are you going to help my building what are you going

[00:12:53] to do to help me when I face these these situations how are you going to protect my workers my

[00:12:58] guests who are in the building those are all great questions to ask today not when it happens

[00:13:03] now I'm I think I'm going to share a story a little bit too where you know this was a crisis

[00:13:07] situation that we were brought into and it didn't have to be this way and luckily you know

[00:13:12] nobody was hurt but definitely exposure risk but now I was going to say it's it's a vital you're

[00:13:21] making business decisions and decision about people's health and you're not well informed

[00:13:25] bring us in on the front end so that you do have the information and you can ask those better

[00:13:29] questions exposure science covers a broad subject area including toxicology industrial hygiene

[00:13:41] and risk assessment from occupational community or environmental exposure exposure scientists

[00:13:47] apply scientific methodologies to understand exposure risks and apply controls when necessary

[00:13:53] we at exposure assessment consulting have this expertise please reach out to us at info at

[00:13:59] exposureconsulting.com for a free 15 minute consultation to discuss the specifics of your

[00:14:06] exposure scenario one thing that you again mentioned I think is very important and

[00:14:19] healthcare kind of has this mandate now and implementing it is the emergency plan or emergency

[00:14:26] preparedness have things in place for when things go wrong have your supply chain in place or have

[00:14:33] contingency plans or what have you and it seems like and you can tell me otherwise it seems like

[00:14:38] not all healthcare facilities are up to speed fast enough on that it seems like there's

[00:14:44] you know even though there are some requirements for it there is taking a while to build up to

[00:14:49] have that emergency plan in place and some of them and still are being caught off guard and I don't

[00:14:54] know if you've had similar experience or like to understand your experience experience there from

[00:14:58] a healthcare standpoint yeah a lot of times people since they don't understand restoration

[00:15:04] they don't know how to prepare and plan for it you know they understand I've got water in

[00:15:08] the building okay how much water and what needs to happen to properly mitigate since they don't

[00:15:13] understand it they don't they're not asked the right questions they're not helping themselves

[00:15:17] prepare for it again another reason to bring us in and ask those questions that huddle is important

[00:15:23] but I wish that huddle would happen the day the hospital opened now let's talk about how we're

[00:15:29] going to prepare for this the other thing I want to point out too is when you have a community

[00:15:34] event when you have a storm hit a community all the restoration vendors are going to be

[00:15:39] tapped those resources will be used up what is your plan in that case yes there'll be support

[00:15:46] companies coming in from different areas different states but will you be on the list how soon

[00:15:52] will you be serviced who's coming what are their training what commitment have you been

[00:15:57] have you put in place to get the level of response you need speaking to healthcare Alex

[00:16:02] I want to go back to that that's a vital part of our community's healthcare you know he's

[00:16:06] emergency situations I would hope they would have that proactive plan in place so they can

[00:16:12] serve the community help us in a larger event I think that's great info and that's what you

[00:16:19] brought up there was you know being on the list you know part of that emergency plan is you know

[00:16:25] have your vendors in place you know I know for example if there's issues and there's local

[00:16:32] HVAC companies where I am you know have a relationship with them built up so you are

[00:16:37] about list when something happens they call you you don't have to worry about calling them they

[00:16:42] say hey do you need anything because if you don't have those relationships built up you know

[00:16:47] if you're talking about dehumidification machines or you know portable HEPA filter machines

[00:16:53] or portable HEPA filters they only have a finite amount of those and if they have people

[00:17:00] they're lined up and they have a list and say we're done and as you said it may be people coming

[00:17:05] in from out of town out of state and they um they you don't know you haven't vetted them

[00:17:12] and but they are the ones who are showing up and they may not be the best they may not

[00:17:17] know anything about them and you don't know anything about their equipment and or their

[00:17:21] processes yeah I want to add this too this is not a negative against the restoration industry

[00:17:28] you know they're the partners we need them when a small leak happens to a catastrophe we need these

[00:17:34] vendors right some of these are very highly trained and so if I'm putting my vendor hat on a

[00:17:39] restoration vendor I would love to be able to walk your facility before an event I would love

[00:17:44] to be identify staging locations interesting points about the building that I need to be

[00:17:48] aware of you know I would love to take notes down power is a big issue we have all this

[00:17:53] equipment how are we going to power it what are your critical areas but now if a restoration

[00:17:58] vendor can see it proactively I can put a great plan in place the what if factors

[00:18:03] so it goes both way that partnership is critical ideally I would love to walk have an

[00:18:08] industrialized genus restoration vendor a facility or somebody's aware of the building

[00:18:13] and understands the business whatever that business is all that group to walk

[00:18:17] the facility and put this plan together one thing I'm going to ask you about and

[00:18:23] it's important as far as the restoration vendor is there has been I'll say attempts to

[00:18:33] have people understand the importance of industrial hygienists in this process

[00:18:37] and some of what I've seen through and you're familiar with IICRC

[00:18:44] you know I think the importance is we're from industrial hygiene standpoint I know I have tried

[00:18:49] to build a better relationship with IICRC some of the vendors I think it's important for them

[00:18:56] if they're listening to understand that industrial hygienists are here to not only help them

[00:19:02] but help the end client as well we are not there to be adversarial to them we all have

[00:19:07] a similar goal so I'd like to if you could give us some because some of your thoughts

[00:19:12] there as well because I know there have been some some abs and flows in the relationship

[00:19:17] between industrial hygienists and IICRC you said that very well ebbs and flows you're absolutely right

[00:19:24] I see back in history that any type of negative impression that we've had is when we talk about

[00:19:32] clearance report it's past fail and so right immediately we're the ones brought in that's

[00:19:37] industrial hygienist oh you passed it oh good you did good you failed that's just the opposite

[00:19:41] so we have to get away from you know that pass-fail ratio and say how can I help you

[00:19:46] with this project what's our goal how to be partner on this not just a pass-fail

[00:19:51] but yeah we need to be part of that IICRC is a great body of work if you look at the guidelines

[00:19:56] that's 500 for example how many times is it mentioned you know lean on ask for industrial

[00:20:01] hygienists to assist you on these projects I don't I don't see that language inserted

[00:20:07] as other resources are and we should be inserted on that IICRC in my opinion

[00:20:13] they're very focused on the restoration services and they're very helpful some great guidelines in

[00:20:19] place that's a great place to start a conversation use those guidelines as part of your program

[00:20:26] as part of your plan and develop from there don't this is not the all the one way of doing it

[00:20:33] it helps with the problem solving but I wish they would insert more of industrial jazz

[00:20:39] in our role that we can support sure no I completely agree and I think that's what our

[00:20:45] efforts have been towards is understanding that you know we are there they may view us as you

[00:20:53] know as you said pass-fail we're there to get a job done and I like how you said that and I've

[00:20:59] said it before is the guidance is not this ending point the guidance is the starting point

[00:21:04] and you grow from that point everybody views that says oh this is what the guidance is the guidance

[00:21:09] is where you start from and then expand from there and some people that are not I'll say experience

[00:21:17] in this area don't really appreciate that yeah it I love how you said it's a starting point

[00:21:23] how it's how the guidelines are applied is where you bring the team in and that team can

[00:21:29] say okay in order to do in order to accomplish this here's that's going to affect the building

[00:21:34] and the people what are we going to do about that I'll give an example you know talk about

[00:21:37] HVAC systems when you throw or if you have a loss you know 100 gallons of water impact the building

[00:21:43] mechanical systems are not designed to handle that increasing humidity so therefore what are you

[00:21:49] going to do about that what are the next steps what demification airflow great we want to move

[00:21:54] air that's that's critical to mitigation where is that air going what air is coming into the

[00:22:00] building how is it being moved throughout the building got stack effect and high rises all of

[00:22:05] these issues really need to be discussed with a well-rounded team so guidelines say you should

[00:22:12] have demitrification of fans and air movement great those are good guidelines how do we apply

[00:22:17] it to this specific building with or without occupants that's how we need to really look at the scenario

[00:22:25] exposure science covers a broad subject area including toxicology industrial hygiene and

[00:22:30] risk assessment from occupational community or environmental exposure exposure scientists

[00:22:36] apply scientific methodologies to understand exposure risks and apply controls when necessary

[00:22:42] we at exposure assessment consulting have this expertise please reach out to us at info

[00:22:48] at exposure consulting dot com for a free 15 minute consultation to discuss the specifics of your

[00:22:55] exposure scenario sure do you have do you have some example you mentioned an example earlier

[00:23:02] of a real-life kind of scenario do you have a an example that you can kind of give us your

[00:23:06] experience with the restoration process and i'll say challenges that you may have run into

[00:23:12] while you're working on that project yeah i would love to share a story this happened

[00:23:17] um in february of this year 2024 and this is an exact example of a critical situation we were

[00:23:24] brought into and i want to share this because it allows us a lot of opportunity for learning

[00:23:30] it's again not to critique it's just a learning opportunity so we we were called in day three of

[00:23:38] a fire that that occurred in a manufacturing facility we were called in because the owner

[00:23:44] the operator the managers were not um receiving the services they thought were appropriate that a lot

[00:23:49] of questions that were being answered a lot of uncertainties they asked us to come up we can

[00:23:53] assist with really setting up the scope of work absolutely great thanks for calling

[00:23:59] so little details about the project it's a metal plating manufacturing facility

[00:24:04] about 75 workers kind of on the floor and they had an attached office area as well

[00:24:10] um the fire occurred in one of their finishing furnaces plating furnishing furnaces so we asked

[00:24:18] okay tell us what was in there what what was what was the components of the of the fire what what

[00:24:25] soot was released what is the source basically i don't know we never asked well no one's ever asked

[00:24:33] at this point restoration work has already been uh has already started a very well known

[00:24:38] national company had already started cleaning okay well what's the scope of work well we don't

[00:24:45] really know how has containment been set no containment's been set and as we walk around a

[00:24:50] lot of questions come up so i'll share just a few of these they had air circulation

[00:24:55] hepa filtered air scrubbers throughout the facility but there was no really rhyme or reason

[00:25:00] no contaminants were set up um it gets worse um alex i was i was just stunned

[00:25:06] they had cleaning crews on top of catwalks cleaning areas above workers so the operations never

[00:25:13] shut down so you've got multiple issues and hazards right there a lot of the workers again

[00:25:21] since operation was going they had n95 mask on most of them on their chins um they actually had

[00:25:26] soot on their face and they were wearing gloves they had soot on their gloves and so right

[00:25:30] there it's just multiple issues of lack of control lack of planning um you know just a lack of overall

[00:25:39] response it gets worse so we met with the restoration crew he said stop everything

[00:25:47] we need a plan we need to discuss all these safety issues we need to discuss the cleaning

[00:25:52] protocol why are we here and do a source identification so really what was missing

[00:25:58] the whole time was nobody on day one did that first evaluation of identifying what is the source

[00:26:04] what's the cleaning scope cleaning protocol cleaning chemicals and then say okay let's talk

[00:26:09] about the building itself what type of chemicals are on place it's a plating facility where

[00:26:14] chemicals stored or were in the chemicals affected um and no we did a perimeter so typically

[00:26:20] we want to identify what is the perimeter we identified 95 percent of the manufacturing

[00:26:25] area was contaminated with soot but it wasn't contained about 50 percent of the office had

[00:26:32] evidence of soot now again we have not identified what's the soot what's the source what's the

[00:26:36] hazard here so all these missing pieces we had to actually stop the job and start from day one

[00:26:42] and look at source identification put a plan in place safety protocol and evaluate what concerns

[00:26:50] what safety concerns were already existing at the plant that you now have workers are unfamiliar

[00:26:56] with this location working in and then how are we going to do it in a safe manner

[00:27:03] luckily we're able to stop the job turn the job around and reset and put these places

[00:27:08] put these measures in place they were absolutely critical and you would think a national company

[00:27:13] that these would already be in place to see somebody cleaning on catwalks above workers

[00:27:20] I've just never seen it before no safety gear no hard hats no fall protection a lift and ladder

[00:27:28] so it was such uh fortunately nobody was hurt but I think it was just a matter of time

[00:27:36] but that case where an industrial hygienist should have been brought in we were brought in

[00:27:40] to handle safety issues source identification to help with the protocol help with contaminants

[00:27:46] help with also outlining what is the end result what does clean mean and how are we going to

[00:27:51] validate clean nope did not they had an eHS person you know we kind of get where we could

[00:28:08] pull into eHS that's a it's a big role to fill um they had somebody who was aware and

[00:28:14] was trying to fill the eHS role but you know they need support too that's too many hats to wear

[00:28:22] I think a lot of people misunderstand what the site safety and health person is

[00:28:30] you know they have their one particular focus and oftentimes they I want to describe it as a

[00:28:38] distraction but things that are going on outside of their scope or their focus is a

[00:28:42] distraction to their job oftentimes you're going to need someone who comes in and does this on a

[00:28:49] regular basis who knows what they're doing can easily do it and doesn't distract them from their

[00:28:53] one particular role there and as you said if they try to put on too many hats things get diluted

[00:28:59] and it sounds like it snowballs into this um situation that you ran into there yeah I

[00:29:07] would also say you know a lot of a lot of people have never experienced a registration

[00:29:12] event so it's not a common experience and therefore you need people who are engaged in this to help you

[00:29:18] with that um I mean and I turn the tables on this what if and here's what this proactive planning

[00:29:24] should look like what if day one the registration vendor shows up the eHS person has their safety

[00:29:29] manual has all their chemicals list their sds sheets has critical areas and they hand them

[00:29:34] binders they say here's how we operate here's our concerns here's the safety measures we

[00:29:40] currently have in place and now we talk about exposure what are my workers exposed to because

[00:29:45] of this fire if operations must continue how can we do it safely and what does safely mean

[00:29:52] having that dialogue day one the restoration vendor would have had a better chance to achieve

[00:29:57] success you would have had critical components for safety to address potential exposures

[00:30:03] and again that well-rounded team unfortunately in this case it was not you know the most

[00:30:08] safety we saw was a barrier that caution tape around the furnace that caught on fire but no

[00:30:13] other real safety measures were in place it was catastrophic and as you said from what the

[00:30:22] workers were wearing it's oftentimes you run into these scenarios where even the vendor is

[00:30:29] not I'll say acutely aware of what's necessary for ensuring the safety of their own workers

[00:30:37] and if they are not aware of what's needed for their workers they're definitely not going to be

[00:30:42] aware of what's needed for your facility's employees so again as you said it's part of a

[00:30:48] comprehensive team know when to ask for help there's no shame in asking for help I think

[00:30:55] a lot of people feel like they can do it all and you can't you have to ask for help yeah

[00:31:00] and then we all get ton of vision sometimes too so having a fresh perspective you know to

[00:31:05] ask some critical questions is necessary I think it only helps the project and protects people

[00:31:12] you know just to give it 95s out as a safety blanket you know was that appropriate you know

[00:31:17] what what is the potential exposure if you haven't identified this source yet

[00:31:23] is there dermal issues none of those things were even asked it was a safety will give out

[00:31:27] in 95s they'll be fine let them keep working that's not appropriate so from using that scenario

[00:31:36] do you see from a I'll just say either business interruption sign or loss of revenue side for getting

[00:31:47] ahead of the safety concerns and getting it in early do you see a benefit to saving money

[00:31:53] in the long run by getting us in early instead of having things done the wrong way for I'll say

[00:31:59] a week and then having to stop reevaluate redo everything and then put new plans in place

[00:32:07] you bring up a very interesting topic and I think it should be discussed more

[00:32:12] more conversation around this too is actually who is paying for the services

[00:32:17] so typically and this is again a broader discussion is needed what I hear a lot are well

[00:32:23] the insurance companies paying for it well this is the vendor the insurance company recommended

[00:32:28] well the insurance company says we can't do that well I have to get approved from the

[00:32:32] insurance company and I get their critical component of this they're they're part of the team

[00:32:36] but I think we need to start asking understanding who is really the client here

[00:32:41] if we're talking about who is the consumer the building owner manager

[00:32:45] what is being done to protect them and their people and then how is the insurance carrier

[00:32:50] typically supporting them what is that partnership I think we need to take a step back and really

[00:32:55] look at that because I hear so many times well the insurance company said to do this

[00:33:00] and not that it's not necessarily wrong but if I'm the consumer I want to have what's how am

[00:33:06] I being protected how are my people being protected and again that's where the proactive plan

[00:33:11] comes into place bring your insurance team into this discussion on the on the very onset

[00:33:18] we talk about value you know we talk about value what's the value of industrial hygiene

[00:33:22] immensely not just when things go wrong right those are are very critical situation when

[00:33:29] things go wrong the cost can be through the roof but bring us in the beginning okay what is

[00:33:36] the mitigation plan what's the correct equipment needed for these mitigation plan I just can

[00:33:42] validate that through simple psychometrics I think he says something very valuable and I'm

[00:33:50] going to generalize here um and then make a specific is you know not all businesses are made

[00:33:56] the same not all insurance companies are made the same you know they may be you may have an

[00:34:03] insurance company that says you don't need to do that or our expert says you don't need to do

[00:34:08] that and when you go and if you get involved in the engagement you find out maybe their expert

[00:34:12] doesn't have enough experience in this realm or experience with this particular type of restoration

[00:34:17] event maybe they're just used to a mold event instead of a I'll say some kind of catastrophic

[00:34:21] fire event and they are applying inappropriate metrics to your scenario when the scenario is

[00:34:29] not what they are used to so I again I think that's why it's critical for that engagement

[00:34:33] to get involved and make sure as you said the client is looking out for themselves

[00:34:39] yeah if you're the owner the building owner and manager you know that falls on you

[00:34:45] and you need a good team around you industrial hygienists need to be part of that that team

[00:34:50] to only enhance the outcome and I many times what is so we're done you know like it never even

[00:34:55] happened everything's clean what does that mean you know there's not that justification or documentation

[00:35:05] to certify or to justify or to claim this job is done I agree and beyond I'll say beyond that

[00:35:16] not only showing this job is done what are your thoughts on what the safety concerns are for

[00:35:22] either the restoration employees or the company employees that are being exposed to something

[00:35:28] you know is a risk assessment necessary for what they were exposed to during either the release

[00:35:35] events or the restoration event that is re-entraining material potentially into the ambient air

[00:35:43] you know how are you addressing or how do you recommending that be addressed as far as a

[00:35:49] human health and safety standpoint yeah well let's let's take that little step further too

[00:35:55] when a restoration event occurs and people are coming into your building

[00:35:59] restoration vendors need to have that safety evaluation I'll bring one example on right now

[00:36:05] the increase with illicit drugs with fentanyl with methamphetamines the use of these products

[00:36:10] especially in multifamily settings we must assume that there's risks that we'll be facing

[00:36:17] and ask ourselves am I protected or properly protected to enter this space it's no longer

[00:36:24] going into this to get work done no no what can I do what do I need to do to protect myself

[00:36:31] a lot of these drug rooms who walk into you know fentanyl the lethal dose is is such a small

[00:36:37] small and unfortunately there have been some recent deaths in hotels where children hand to

[00:36:43] mouth you know they touch and there's there's been a few deaths which is a tragic situation

[00:36:50] that again we need a broad perspective of what am I walking into what's the

[00:36:54] restoration event how do I protect myself and the occupants when we walk into these

[00:36:59] restoration and we now we have fans blowing you know air everywhere we get equipment introduced

[00:37:05] we're introducing cleaning chemicals wait a second what's why what's the plan what's

[00:37:11] the evaluation you did the risk assessment as you mentioned before you did any of that

[00:37:16] you and I worked on that one hotel site we had the explosion

[00:37:22] and it was that yellow substance throughout what was that substance you know we could not

[00:37:27] begin work until we identified and did that risk assessment before we put anybody

[00:37:33] into that building we needed to the proper assessment I think that's great I think

[00:37:40] and again this goes back to the getting us in early on and planning you know and it's even training

[00:37:46] too have the people who are on sites trained to recognize when there is a problem if they walk

[00:37:54] into a situation where they if their hotel staff or building staff and they see some kind of drug

[00:38:02] paraphernalia immediately you know something like stop we need an evaluation here or have a plan

[00:38:08] in place that they're trained to look out for the stuff instead of just blindly sending people in

[00:38:14] two rooms and not knowing what they're going to interact with and just saying no big deal

[00:38:21] you know I've been in hotel rooms where I've done it's it's it's not even related to this

[00:38:26] it's for a mold assessment I walk in we open the door and we see drug paraphernalia I say

[00:38:31] close the door we're done in here because but that's the important thing that people

[00:38:35] need to recognize and there I think there's a lot of lack of training there for the staff

[00:38:38] at these facilities 100% and that's one example you know listed drugs and hotels there's a link

[00:38:45] there because unfortunately the use is increasing and a lot of times people are using hotel rooms

[00:38:52] because they don't want to bring it into their homes their space they're traveling we socially we

[00:38:57] act in differently in hotel rooms it's not our space we're just here for one night but now

[00:39:02] you look at it in manufacturing industrial setting you look at some critical areas in the hospital let's

[00:39:07] say where they've got you know radiation whatever it may be before we go through that door we need

[00:39:12] to stop and ask what potential hazards am I going to be exposed to before I go through that door

[00:39:16] we need to find that facility person say tell me about your facility tell me about areas that

[00:39:23] that I may be exposed to or I need to interact in this space what does that mean to me

[00:39:27] what does it mean for the restoration efforts I think those are critical key things that we

[00:39:31] need to ask better and more questions at the onset you bring up a great point and I like to do this

[00:39:39] and I'll say again there's been a wide range that I like to get your input on this is dealing with

[00:39:45] the facility folks you know I view them as our our eyes and ears on the site they know what's

[00:39:52] going on with their facilities they know what problems are at their facilities but sometimes

[00:39:57] these facilities facility individuals will will view outside people as I'll

[00:40:04] for lack of better terminology a threat to their existence at the facility or something

[00:40:10] what have your interactions been with facility people and how have you helped them understand

[00:40:15] that we are there to help them out be on their side yeah yeah it's we have been right we do come

[00:40:23] in we're the past fail we're the you're doing this wrong you know we do sometimes come in with that

[00:40:30] and then they're also you know this is my facility they take pride in ownership and that

[00:40:34] they know best they've got the history of it too so by taking all that in consideration

[00:40:39] I think we as industrial justice need to do a better job of showing how we can help

[00:40:44] I think we can catapult and really use the movement with EHS teams

[00:40:48] and say we can help support your EHS so a lot of facility teams are linking EHS they understand how

[00:40:56] they that helps them it's a key point to the team we can come in as industrial justice say

[00:41:01] we are an extension of your EHS team here to help here offer guidance here to protect you and

[00:41:07] your workers I think if we come in with that type of introduction I think it'd be much warmer

[00:41:14] um we do talk a lot about risk you know risk adversion you know why how can we help with this

[00:41:20] I love doing lunch and learns I love doing these podcasts and Alex thanks for having me on this

[00:41:24] because I think spreading this information before an incident happens is critical um I

[00:41:31] I would nobody likes I refer to that project you are on you and I were on nobody likes those

[00:41:36] projects that was a very difficult and challenging it was nobody wants that um

[00:41:43] so let's prepare ahead of time you know for those unfortunately the storm events they're only going

[00:41:48] to get worse so some of these key properties and not just the gulf not just hurricanes but

[00:41:53] freeze events um let's keep it prepared for those two no I think that's that's very important

[00:42:02] and I don't know again how the interaction will be with insurance companies but you know

[00:42:06] having this you know a lot of insurance companies are viewing uh you know they're leaving certain

[00:42:13] areas just because of events that are going on having I think these critical components set up

[00:42:18] will I think help the insurance companies that you're working with you know feel better about

[00:42:23] your scenario listen we've got these things that are already set up these emergency plans

[00:42:29] we are set to go when an event happens and again getting ahead of it as you said is the

[00:42:34] is the critical thing and understanding that industrial hygienists are there with that expertise

[00:42:41] have you seen an increase or an uptick in uh engagement from these facilities or these any

[00:42:50] these companies uh in understanding the industrial hygiene interactions uh and the critical training

[00:42:59] and understanding that we bring to the table yeah yeah I'll show one example that

[00:43:04] thinks very effective for us um if when I work with building owners imagine I say that a lot

[00:43:09] because that's a key group of people I like to work with they understand the business

[00:43:13] and a lot of them are my clients they use their buildings as their business hotels for example

[00:43:19] they use that building as part of their key key part of their business um other facilities

[00:43:25] that that building is critical for business operations manufacturing so I can approach them

[00:43:30] and saying I can help you maintain your operations during an event small to large

[00:43:36] help you with your business outcome be a business partner through my i.h services providing

[00:43:43] safety reducing your risk addressing your risk I think that's a great approach that we can

[00:43:48] take to get better engaged with those business leaders that's critical you know a lot of these

[00:43:56] a lot of these teams are bringing an accountants specialized accountants to help them with their

[00:44:00] insurance claim we should be an extension just like that bring your i.h and to help you with

[00:44:05] your business practices I've been on multiple buildings where tell me about your key business

[00:44:10] operations how do we maintain those oh if I can put a critical barrier if I can separate

[00:44:15] work areas if I can help you get back in business and restore this area area quicker

[00:44:21] as it's a key focus to your operations let's do that let's talk about that

[00:44:26] so I think approaching a business minded will only help the entire team

[00:44:31] I that's great advice I think that's what's wonderful here again realizing that the client

[00:44:37] is concerned about continuing their business and you being there to help them do that I think

[00:44:43] that's great a great description thank you so based on everything that we have talked about today

[00:44:50] our critical role is industrial hygienists in the restoration of the restoration process and

[00:44:56] at our past on work on this you talked about storms you talked about different weather events

[00:45:02] where do you see future trends and challenges in the restoration space with the landscape

[00:45:10] that we currently face I think there's many I think there's several right now you're dealing

[00:45:17] with a market that's very agile very active these mergers think it's going to take a couple years

[00:45:24] for these different acquisitions to become one unit just because you buy a company now you've

[00:45:30] got to train you've got an onboard bring them up to your level of standards so I think over

[00:45:35] the next few years there's going to be some difficulties with that but I see mergers only

[00:45:40] increasing acquisitions only increasing which means more onboarding more training is going to be needed

[00:45:47] pulling these different offices together to work as one team is going to be a challenge

[00:45:54] that just what we see in the marketplace exactly what we see with you know typical

[00:45:57] business so the next couple years it's going to be difficult to see these large companies

[00:46:01] operate as a single unit and show that you uniform support if you will

[00:46:07] I also think too there's some activity with IICRC with the other restoration

[00:46:13] institute association some good activities going on I hope that they can be a louder voice

[00:46:19] in the market help that they can bring IHS onboard really show that level of dedication

[00:46:25] to guidelines certifications the other thing I'm hopeful for is that there's a little bit

[00:46:30] more regulations around restoration events I think that may come from the insurance market

[00:46:35] because they're you know they're paying a lot of this that's where you know unfortunately

[00:46:40] that's where a lot of the funds are coming from but if there's more regulations around

[00:46:45] restoration I think that could be helpful while at the same time I cautious and saying

[00:46:49] that we we need to have a uniform agreement if you will in the restoration market what

[00:46:55] does the end user deserve what is the consumer looking for what does the consumer need and why

[00:47:02] I think we need to put the consumer out into this I think the consumer needs to be much more

[00:47:05] focused and in the forefront of why and what we do

[00:47:11] no I think that's that's great and ending on that consumer thing is understanding that

[00:47:17] you know if we as industrial hygienists need to be the consumer's advocate we can be

[00:47:23] because ultimately we are there to protect many different parties there and be the voice for those

[00:47:30] people that say if you you want something done correctly the first time so we don't have to go

[00:47:35] back and readdress everything else yeah and a lot of our clients that we work with they've

[00:47:42] never been through an incident like this it doesn't happen daily they understand their

[00:47:46] business operations they understand their safety measures as part of their regular operations

[00:47:53] but now you've just changed the event you just changed what normal is because of this restoration

[00:47:58] event you need experts on your side to help you through that no I think that's great I think

[00:48:05] that you know as you said earlier I called action to understand that our role is expanding and

[00:48:10] our role can be this industrial hygienist role can be from this restoration standpoint and

[00:48:18] helping and being an advocate for them and as you said working with them in a non typical

[00:48:25] event for them is critical because we do have that expertise yeah and I want to say something

[00:48:33] too we're we're always being brought into unique projects there's always something that has

[00:48:38] occurred something that's triggered our response right so in a restoration event

[00:48:42] something's happened to that building something random whatever it may be a small leak to a storm

[00:48:49] but something has happened that has changed the indoor environment from what it's normally is

[00:48:56] you need an expert to help you with that process you've experienced a change bring a team member

[00:49:01] that can help you understand what that means to your building and to your people

[00:49:05] no I think that's great advice um I think we've covered a lot of stuff so Tom thank you very much

[00:49:12] for joining us today Tom Barzak with Chericon I think the information you have given us

[00:49:17] on today's edition of the exposure scientist podcast has been valuable I hope everyone

[00:49:22] can take this information and grow from it likewise thank you Alex for having me

[00:49:27] of course thank you for listening to the exposure scientist podcast you can connect

[00:49:33] with us at our website exposure consulting dot com where you can book a private consultation

[00:49:38] and send in any questions regarding any episodes or our guests see you on the next episode